Author Topic: Land Management  (Read 2022 times)

Offline Fjell

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Land Management
« on: November 30, 2020, 11:02:28 am »
I see the ELM is being rolled out:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55102891

People should not underestimate how big a change this is, and access needs to be made a major part of it. It’s such  a big potential change that Scotland might not do it so they can rejoin the EU in the future and so will stick to subsidising big landowners (you have to laugh sometimes).

They are proposing paying golden goodbyes to older farmers to clear the way for youth. That’s pretty radical.

Offline Badlad

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2020, 10:52:37 pm »
I think caving needs to do some serious lobbying on this issue as it roles forward.  Last communication from Defra that I saw said that they didn't think caving had any value, where as they did see value in other outdoor activities.  They shouldn't be allowed to get away with that sort of opinion unchallenged.

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2020, 08:19:43 am »
Sounds like discrimination to me

Offline Judi Durber

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We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life waiting for us.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2020, 01:51:30 pm »
Sounds like discrimination to me

Discrimination is fine if its justified - and its not actually the aim to bump off the elderly anyways. It looks like it'll be available to any farmer who wants to leave the industry.

Online ChrisJC

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2020, 02:43:53 pm »
It does need reforming.
Just have a look for some of your local farmers here:
https://cap-payments.defra.gov.uk/Default.aspx
You can see why it's so expensive country-wide.

Chris.
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Offline Fjell

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2020, 03:04:04 pm »
It does need reforming.
Just have a look for some of your local farmers here:
https://cap-payments.defra.gov.uk/Default.aspx
You can see why it's so expensive country-wide.

Chris.

The problem is that we are not prepared to pay farmers what it costs to produce food in this country.

Norway (unexpectedly) voted not to join the EU because of concerns over fishing and agriculture. Food there does reflect the cost of local production, and it is eyewateringly expensive coming from here. Our milk alone was about £1500 a year.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2020, 03:40:01 pm »
The thing that amazes me is that we all want cheap food, but that doesn't actually mean we have any more disposable income than we used to. Where food has got cheaper, rent/ property has got more expensive. By subsidising our farmers (so supermarkets can sell food for less than it costs to produce), all we are really doing is subsidising the landlords who are taking up any slack in disposable income, while the farmers struggle to make ends meet...

Online ChrisJC

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2020, 04:09:39 pm »
The problem is that we are not prepared to pay farmers what it costs to produce food in this country.

Which does raise the interesting question about why farmers are a special case. The coal industry couldn't compete - so it's gone. Most of the car industry has gone the same way, as has the steel industry. Most heavy industry in fact. Yet farmers are generously subsidised, so most of them are pretty well off, which in itself keeps the public school industry going as well!

There must be an argument for not allowing the farming industry to shrink to the level that is economic / meets demand.

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Online Fishes

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2020, 04:10:24 pm »
I think it is a mistake to assume that big farmers and landlords are the only people that benefit from EU subsidies. There are many small hill farmers in my area that rely on them to survive and most of them live quite a frugal life.


Offline PeteHall

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2020, 04:40:53 pm »
That is very true Fishes, but the point I was making is that they only need the subsidies because we aren't prepared to pay a fair price for what we eat.

As food prices have come down (enabled by farming subsidies), we should have more disposable income, but that disposable income is used to inflate property prices through increased rent (and mortgages, which are also really rent). Hence our earnings have shifted from paying farmers a fair price for what we eat, to paying the landlords (and banks, which are also landlords). This shift is made possible by farming subsidies, meaning that farms remain viable, despite not being able to sell their produce at a fair price.

As I see it, everyone needs food and everyone needs somewhere to live. Assuming that there is no genuine shortage, the market will always ensure that most people spend most of their money on these two basic necessities, so if you subsidise one, the other will take the financial slack.

If subsidies didn't exist, food prices would increase and we would all therefore have less disposable income, so property prices and rent would decrease, because people couldn't afford to pay at current levels. Hence the farming subsidies enable the over-inflated property market to keep inflating.

Clearly any sudden change to the financial markets would be pretty disastrous for a lot of people, however things have been going in the wrong direction for years, so something needs to happen to bring things back into balance.

Offline Brains

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2020, 04:47:37 pm »
The problem is that we are not prepared to pay farmers what it costs to produce food in this country.

Which does raise the interesting question about why farmers are a special case. The coal industry couldn't compete - so it's gone. Most of the car industry has gone the same way, as has the steel industry. Most heavy industry in fact. Yet farmers are generously subsidised, so most of them are pretty well off, which in itself keeps the public school industry going as well!

There must be an argument for not allowing the farming industry to shrink to the level that is economic / meets demand.

Chris.
Many farmers of "middle england" have the ear / are the ruling elite, whereas heavy industry and the mines were mostly populated the poor plebs who got uppity. Cant see Boris and the likes of rich farmer Cummings cutting off their own gravy train....   :shrug:

Offline Fjell

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2020, 04:56:03 pm »
The problem is that we are not prepared to pay farmers what it costs to produce food in this country.

Which does raise the interesting question about why farmers are a special case. The coal industry couldn't compete - so it's gone. Most of the car industry has gone the same way, as has the steel industry. Most heavy industry in fact. Yet farmers are generously subsidised, so most of them are pretty well off, which in itself keeps the public school industry going as well!

There must be an argument for not allowing the farming industry to shrink to the level that is economic / meets demand.

Chris.
Many farmers of "middle england" have the ear / are the ruling elite, whereas heavy industry and the mines were mostly populated the poor plebs who got uppity. Cant see Boris and the likes of rich farmer Cummings cutting off their own gravy train....   :shrug:

We could reduce most of England to trackless scrub if it would make you feel better. Would certainly be a cheap option, if not so good for the balance of payments.

Online Fishes

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2020, 04:57:19 pm »
I suspect that in many cases a significant increase in food prices will see more people going hungry or becoming homeless.  Not everyone has disposable income and I suspect the poorest would suffer the most. A shortage of housing in areas with sufficient employment is a major cause of increased property prices rather than food costs.

Its interesting that you talk about how cheap food subsidies make food for everyone. My old neighbour was a sheep farmer and couldn't afford to buy British lamb to eat. He Bought New Zealand lamb which was half the price and didn't benefit from EU subsidies.

Sheep farmers are already facing a major crisis, as most of their product is exported to the EU. Without subsidies we could lose that industry completely.


Offline mikem

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2020, 09:11:19 pm »
BCA only has 6,000 members, BMC 80,000 - so we lose out on a unit price basis...

Offline pwhole

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2020, 10:09:55 pm »
I remember driving down to Oxfordshire a couple of years to do a rope-access job on a village church - the first thing we saw after getting off the motorway onto the main A road was a large sign saying 'Stop the new proposed housing development - public meeting next week, yada yada'. Then another a few miles down the road, and an old 2017 election poster for the local MP (guess which party). We drove for about 25 miles through rolling fields and thatched-cottage hamlets until we got to the job, and in all that time I don't think I saw any herd animals or any significant crops - just grass. At the church we worked all day and saw two people - the church warden, who let us in, and a lady on a horse who rode past at lunchtime and waved to us on the tower. That was it. Apart from those two incidents, nothing at all happened, anywhere. Just empty green fields as far as the eye could see.

All the way back to the motorway afterwards we barely saw anyone. By the time we drove back past the housing development protest sign I was almost ready to tear it down. I couldn't work out who would protest against the housing development, as there didn't seem to be anyone actually there. I guess it was pretty, but it was bloody boring. I was praying for an entire brightly-lit town to be slowly lowered from the sky like Close Encounters and just 'parp' itself into action.

And imagine the faint howls of rage echoing on the breeze from the distant downs, like a long-distance HM Bateman cartoon ;)

Offline martinb

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2020, 09:50:54 pm »
My wife and I moved from Derbyshire to Normandy in France in 2018, because of Brexit.

We had owned a static caravan on the coast for about 11 years, and we had decided to retire here once we hit 60. However the castrofuck that is Brexit bought forward these plans somewhat.

However, France is not as cheap as it used to be years ago, virtually all foodstuffs from milk via butter to vegetables and meat is more expensive than the UK. But you get used to it.
We run a gite business as well as I running a gardening business, with occasional sales of puppies now and again.

Most fresh vegetables are seasonal, so you definately don't get cauliflower in the summer, but most is also relatively locally grown, prices go up and down dependant on whether there is a glut or not.

Most meat is very expensive compared to the UK with lamb eye wateringly pricey - unless you buy it directly from the farmer!  ;)

The problem with the UK is that food prices is that they have been artificially supressed by the major supermarkets over the last 30 years, whereas production costs have risen and the person that has been squeezed is the producer.

Most people in the UK are in for a shock once the reality of Brexit hits. Virtually all French peoiple we speak to cannot understand why the UK is leaving a club that is there for the benefit of everyone, and the talk of Frexit or Itexit is poppycock, Brexit and the associated wrangling has unified the EU more.

Online ChrisJC

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2020, 09:53:08 pm »
I thought we were discussing ELM, not Brexit.

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Offline 2xw

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2020, 12:15:57 am »
I thought we were discussing ELM, not Brexit.

Chris.

They are causally related. ELM is a direct consequence. A good opportunity and it'll be interesting to see whether it is fruitful

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2020, 12:50:43 am »
Looks like there will be a Farage Garage in Holyhead. Although, it appears that most lorries will have to travel to the FG in Warrington to sort their papers.

Offline Brains

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2020, 02:10:04 pm »
Looks like there will be a Farage Garage in Holyhead. Although, it appears that most lorries will have to travel to the FG in Warrington to sort their papers.
New ferry route of Rosslare - Dunkirk is being established by a number of companies (that actually have ferries) to avoid such pointless extra red tape...

Offline Fjell

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2020, 02:19:52 pm »
Looks like there will be a Farage Garage in Holyhead. Although, it appears that most lorries will have to travel to the FG in Warrington to sort their papers.
New ferry route of Rosslare - Dunkirk is being established by a number of companies (that actually have ferries) to avoid such pointless extra red tape...

A bit of a trek. Nearly 500 miles. Bring some Stugeron if you go. Lumpy.

Offline mikem

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2020, 02:23:38 pm »
I have done Newcastle to Bergen & Shetland to Iceland (via the faeroes) - neither of which still run, due to being too far to be economic (both c.600 miles)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 02:33:14 pm by mikem »

Offline Brains

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2020, 02:36:36 pm »
https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1127/1180829-rosslare-wexford-ferry/
This link is from RTE, The Times has also done an article as have many others. Economic viability can be an elusive thing. 24 hours on a boat or 3 days parked in Kent and a mountain of bumf? Remains to be seen how the bean counters react I suppose

Offline Fjell

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Re: Land Management
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2020, 02:38:31 pm »
I used to use the Newcastle Bergen route in all weathers until the buggers cancelled it. Then you had to take the cargo route from Hull to just south of Oslo. About two days in total.

It’s much more fun in small boat.

 

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