Poll

 Is it right or wrong to enforce BCA Training on Caving Club Members if they want to be insured?

Right to enforce training
4 (13.8%)
Wrong to enforce training
24 (82.8%)
I can't read or write
1 (3.4%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?  (Read 621 times)

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« on: September 17, 2021, 07:48:03 pm »
I imagine this to be very 50/50 where the line is drawn. No bun fights, please. I'm just interested in peoples' adultish opinions.

Do you think it's Righter or Wronger to Enforce the British Caving Association Caving Training scheme on Caving Club Members? After all, the training has been around for decades, loads of people do it and find out just how much they didn't know before they did, and it's unarguably fit for purpose (especially in the case of club caving and the Level 2 training, 'cos ladders).  If you need to show someone you actually know your caving arse from your caving elbow (on paper) then it's a requirement for anyone with a duty of care in a tort environment. If you don't need to show you know anyfink whatsoever then it can be ignored. Historically, caving clubs don't need you to be able to show any difference between an arse and an elbow. That may change one day but meanwhile,.. yay!

It's probably a consideration, espeshly if you anticipate being covered by the insurance policy which is a freebie element of membership, after all it's generally and usually somewhat easier to get car insurance if you've got a licence than if you're joyriding in a half-burning stolen deathtrap on a weekly basis.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 08:08:36 pm by Cap'n Chris »

Offline paul

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2021, 08:08:21 pm »
Quite simply, no. I think it's right that training outside of the club structure is available if it is wanted, but I don't agree that it should be compulsory. It isn't a requirement in mountaineering or climbing or hill walking etc. so why should caving be different? The fact the BCA provide Third-PArty insurance cover to facilitate access agreements is in my opinion irrelevant.
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Offline PeteHall

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2021, 08:11:08 pm »
Put like that Chris, it would certainly seem diligent for clubs to insist trip leaders had appropriate training.

Fortunately there are few enough (serious) accidents that I doubt this will ever become a thing.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2021, 08:11:19 pm »
so why should caving be different?

It arguably shouldn't purely because we now live in a new world where coercion, compulsion and mandatory diktat have been normalised. Doing proveably wise things to "be on the safe side" has no boundaries, surely?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 08:26:54 pm by Cap'n Chris »

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2021, 08:13:23 pm »
Take SCUBA diving for example. Nobody is allowed to dive anywhere without a ticket. What's so different about diving?  :shrug:

Get SRT wrong and you could kill yourself just as quick as diving.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2021, 08:26:28 pm »
You're comparing apples to oranges again. Ultimately, your choice isn't contagious, and it's unlikely your cockup will shuffle anyone but yourself off this mortal coil.

I got training, not through the BCA, but a from well known and respected provider, because I wanted to know that I *knew* what I was doing. I certainly wouldn't mandate that someone got training. No-one in our club (decidedly not a BCA member) would mandate it, you are expected to know your own, and your kits, abilities and limits.
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Offline Fishes

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2021, 08:26:42 pm »
Lots of people SCUBA dive without official training and some of them are really skilled divers.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2021, 08:27:54 pm »
Lots of people cave without official training and some of them are really skilled cavers. People still get into trouble, get injured and worse, though, presumably because they could have benefitted from training, perhaps; discuss.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 08:42:31 pm by Cap'n Chris »

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2021, 08:32:19 pm »
You're comparing apples to oranges again. Ultimately, your choice isn't contagious, and it's unlikely your cockup will shuffle anyone but yourself off this mortal coil.

I got training, not through the BCA, but a from well known and respected provider, because I wanted to know that I *knew* what I was doing. I certainly wouldn't mandate that someone got training. No-one in our club (decidedly not a BCA member) would mandate it, you are expected to know your own, and your kits, abilities and limits.

Good, and fair, points, well made.

Anecdotally I'll mention this though, to see if it helps elicit useful input:-

....Have attended numerous overseas events where people "self certify" they're capable of the trip(s) planned, only to discover they're waaaaaaaay out of their depth and actually when push comes to shove they don't have the requisite technical skill/knowledge/ability to avoid being a liability/rescue waiting to happen.

How might it be better organised that you know who you're caving with? Perhaps by having some kind of assessed bona fide of ability? Just sayin'.

Offline paul

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2021, 08:32:47 pm »

Lots people cave without official training and some of them are really skilled cavers. People still get into trouble, get injured and worse, though, presumably because they could have benefitted from training, perhaps; discuss.
Show me the figures which show deaths or injuries to cavers for those who have had "official" training as against those who have not and there might then be something to discuss.
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Offline PeteHall

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2021, 08:33:23 pm »
Lots of people SCUBA dive without official training and some of them are really skilled divers.

Indeed, but it's not the accepted norm. There are very few clubs you could join, venues you could visit, organised trips you could participate in, places you could hire equipment, etc without a ticket.

Sure, some places aren't too good at checking, but if you read the rules, they are clear.

It's accepted in diving, because it's what people expect.

I can't imagine cavers ever accepting such a mandate. Not in this country at least!

Offline Oceanrower

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2021, 08:34:06 pm »
Take SCUBA diving for example. Nobody is allowed to dive anywhere without a ticket. What's so different about diving?  :shrug:

Get SRT wrong and you could kill yourself just as quick as diving.

That’s nonsense. Nobody HAS to have a ticket to go diving the same a as a nobody HAS to have a ticket to go caving. Whether it’s wise is another matter.

Offline sinker

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2021, 08:34:17 pm »
Take SCUBA diving for example. Nobody is allowed to dive anywhere without a ticket. What's so different about diving?  :shrug:

Get SRT wrong and you could kill yourself just as quick as diving.

I can dive anywhere I like (as long as the land-owner allows it) without ANY form of accredited training at all.
Some land owners or dive centres ask for accreditation, PADi whatever, to satisfy their insurance policies.

You can't mandate it outside a club and the minute you mandate it within the clubs then accreditation and certification and refresher training and all the rest of it comes in and it suddenly becomes an "industry" bolted onto the side of a hobby. $$$$$  :(

Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2021, 08:34:34 pm »


Lots people cave without official training and some of them are really skilled cavers. People still get into trouble, get injured and worse, though, presumably because they could have benefitted from training, perhaps; discuss.

Show me the figures which show deaths or injuries to cavers for those who have had "official" training as against those who have not and there might then be something to discuss.

I've overseen more than 10,000 (actually probably more like 20,000) people caving and the accident book has never been opened for any in-cave event. Surface heart attack, yes. But in-cave, no. Does that count? Includes hundreds and hundreds of CIC/SRT Grade 4+ trips, not just "noddy" stuff, btw.

Generally, when doing training, we'd be looking at techniques which have a 100% safety record; since something which is 99.99% "safe" means you'd be looking at 2-3 people per year getting injured if you're taking groups of 8 people caving routinely daily each week. 99.99% "safe" isn't safe when you ramp up numbers.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2021, 08:40:51 pm »
Take SCUBA diving for example. Nobody is allowed to dive anywhere without a ticket. What's so different about diving?  :shrug:

Get SRT wrong and you could kill yourself just as quick as diving.

That’s nonsense. Nobody HAS to have a ticket to go diving the same a as a nobody HAS to have a ticket to go caving. Whether it’s wise is another matter.

Historically nobody had to undergo unnecessary medical procedures in order to be able to go to work. Until now. Things are changing.

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2021, 08:40:59 pm »
Courts love pieces of paper.

Formal training (mandatory or otherwise) would seem to have the unhappy consequence of landing your neck in a guillotine if you happened to be on a trip where something went bad.

“Forcing” pieces of paper onto amateur cavers who enjoy the sport as a hobby and are “recreating” could very easily dissuade them from being involved in part or in whole.

I have always found it strange why some folk are obsessed with imposing their ideas, thoughts and values (against the status quo) on other people wholesale. (That’s a very general comment and not aimed at the OP).

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Offline paul

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2021, 08:44:22 pm »


Lots people cave without official training and some of them are really skilled cavers. People still get into trouble, get injured and worse, though, presumably because they could have benefitted from training, perhaps; discuss.

Show me the figures which show deaths or injuries to cavers for those who have had "official" training as against those who have not and there might then be something to discuss.

I've overseen more than 10,000 (actually probably more like 20,000) people caving and the accident book has never been opened for any in-cave event. Surface heart attack, yes. But in-cave, no. Does that count? Includes hundreds and hundreds of CIC/SRT Grade 4+ trips, not just "noddy" stuff, btw.

Generally, when doing training, we'd be looking at techniques which have a 100% safety record; since something which is 99.99% "safe" means you'd be looking at 2-3 people per year getting injured if you're taking groups of 8 people caving routinely daily each week. 99.99% "safe" isn't safe when you ramp up numbers.

That does not address my point. You are trying to insinuate that cavers who have had "official" training as opposed to those who have gone through the training provided by clubs have a different accident rate and hence "official" training should be made compulsory.. I have asked you to back up your position by providing statistics rather than personal experience or opinion.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2021, 08:45:16 pm »
I have always found it strange why some folk are obsessed with imposing their ideas, thoughts and values on other people wholesale.

It's not strange, it's horrifying. CV-19 Nazis should be lined up and shot for it, perhaps.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2021, 08:46:46 pm »
I have asked you to back up your position by providing statistics rather than personal experience or opinion.

Did you? I missed that.

How about you check the statistics of annual cave rescue(s) and do a ready reckon of club trips v commercial and provide the stats yourself. I think it will be easy to get to a conclusion which supports the thesis.

Offline paul

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2021, 08:46:54 pm »
Take SCUBA diving for example. Nobody is allowed to dive anywhere without a ticket. What's so different about diving?  :shrug:

Get SRT wrong and you could kill yourself just as quick as diving.

That’s nonsense. Nobody HAS to have a ticket to go diving the same a as a nobody HAS to have a ticket to go caving. Whether it’s wise is another matter.

Historically nobody had to undergo unnecessary medical procedures in order to be able to go to work. Until now. Things are changing.

And what has that got to do with the topic you introduced "BCA training should be made compulsory for cavers"?
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2021, 08:47:20 pm »
.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2021, 08:49:02 pm »

And what has that got to do with the topic you introduced "BCA training should be made compulsory for cavers"?

The 1st poll inspired this 2nd one, on precisely the same logical/philosophical grounds but arguably way more relevantly for this forum the 2nd time round.

Offline Pete K

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2021, 08:49:58 pm »
Are we talking about BCA Awards training or the BCA caver training supported by the BCA Training Officer and Regional Training Officers? Either way, no to requiring it IMO.
Recreational caving should not be shackled to the need for qualifications or certification. Clubs should of course consider their own requirements for appropriate experience for those leading others (with support from BCA), but caving as a sport has existed far longer than 'awards' or formal training. I understand when it comes to introducing under 18s to caving in the club setting that it might be desirable to use qualified (or at least 'demonstrably competent') persons for insurance and parental piece of mind reasons, but adults can choose to spend their recreational time as they wish, with whoever they wish. Those who seek further training from a qualified instructor will, but most are content to learn from peers informally. That is surely part of the attraction of joining a club and engaging in social physical activity. I've been hired by recreational cavers for formal training on occasion (and had several ex-clients go on to join caving clubs), but I'd not like to see a BCA that requires it for the recreational world. I make most of my income from leading caving groups and training cavers, but I'd hate to see formal training mandated, it'd just kill volunteering in the sport dead. As well as a being caving instructor, I am also Chair of a large club (and a small one). I see where the two worlds can interact for the benefit of all, but am more than happy that the 2 sides of my caving life can remain separate.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2021, 08:52:29 pm »
Fully agree Pete, which is why I am also dead against compulsory CV-19 testing for anyone who works and loves liberty/freedom. In a free society there should be no compulsory diktat. At all. If people want it, they should at least be consistent and demand it across the board, affecting everyone/everything.

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce BCA Training on Club Caving Members ?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2021, 09:13:54 pm »
There is a big difference between an elected Government and “folk” Mr Chris.

However, this thread is not about Covid.

Odd that you didn’t know that since you are the author of it.

Ian
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