Croesor-Rhosydd trip.

[stma]

Good points. I'm certainly not anti bridge. I quite liked it shining away in the darkness.
The zip/bridge section just diverts around where the original route had collapsed so in the past it would have just been a straight forward walk thru the chamber to the first "bridge"
Like Vanoord said, you have to be quite technically capable to get there in the first place.
If anybody doesn't like the zip and bridge then they can close their eyes and paddle.
If it can be salvaged I'd say it should be re-instated if possible. Bridges and mines go together well. Aren't bridges a major part of this trip anyway just that one happened to be erected 100 yrs after the other ones.
Would also be nice to know if it did fail or otherwise. If it failed then somebody must have gotten wet(ter).

 

[Lincolnshire poacher]

I find it hard to believe that someone would deliberatly sabotage the bridge, if they did then lets hope we find out who did it.

As for doing the trip on your own, i went into Croesor at Easter to take some pics.  As i walk up to the adit a chap in full on trial riding gear is busy stashing a nice new TTR 250 trail bike in the shed next door.  He walks over and starts getting his kit out......which includes pulleys.  "you doing the CRTT?" says i.  To which he replys "Yes, shouldn't be a problem" .

I walked off muttering to myself to take my pics.  Anyway about 45 mins later a caplamp comes down the slope shaft to the flooded cavern.  It's one of Durham Caving club.  We get chatting and i ask him about matey on his own "oh yeah, he's just going down the first descent now!".  I'm guessing he got out ok!.

 

[Les W]

For one, I respect that attitude as it has obviously been backed up with a lot of time - and money - spent on rigging the bridge. I think that sort of dedication deserves support even if the concept doesn't sit entirely perfectly with our own beliefs.

I like the bridge 

I have no problems with it, much respect to the riggers, this must have taken a lot of time and effort (and money) If they meet me in a pub some time a drink or two is theirs 

I think the zip wire and the bridge really make the trip. I really can't see why people have a problem with it, if they don't like it (or it's not challenging enough) then don't use it, nobody is forcing anybody to use the fixed aids.  :-\

 

[Langthwaite Pot]

I can see that people would think the bridge is a little OTT but the zip line does no harm really.
A bit of light relief after/before all the terror

If I may bung in my tuppence-worth and potentially upset a few of you 

This isn't a natural cave, but a man-made mine - so the conventional ethics of underground rigging don't apply. I'll entirely agree that structures like this bridge shouldn't be installed in natural caves, but I think this is a very different case and that it can be justified. (That isn't a dig at cavers btw!).

Significantly, there are a pair of 80' abseils and a zip wire required just to get to this bridge. If you're not confident about descending or are lacking a pulley, you're not going to get to it. Furthermore, it's past what i'd consider to be the most dangerous bit of the trip. I don't agree with the idea that the trip should be made any more challenging on the basis that it would dissuade people. All that's going to achieve is for people to go in and find the trip is more difficult than they expected due to lack of fixtures and then get into trouble.

As far as this bridge is concerned, it gets people round a collapsed section of the 'original' or 'traditional' route and I'd argue that on this basis it's not detrimental to the trip - indeed, I'd go with the comments of the guy who originally rigged it:

For the history books the Zip wire and suspension bridge was installed in Jan of 2005 and the other rigging was installed to make things a little safer: the other zip wire across the free hanging bridge was installed 12 years ago and because i visit the mine regularly remains in good nick.

The intention of the suspension bridge was to create a little bit of tension by deliberately making touch the water and rigged quite loosely. ... My close friend and I wanted to give the fantastic adventure a few more surprises without taking away the challenging aspect of the trip.

For one, I respect that attitude as it has obviously been backed up with a lot of time - and money - spent on rigging the bridge. I think that sort of dedication deserves support even if the concept doesn't sit entirely perfectly with our own beliefs.

I'm afraid I don't agree at all! I don't see any reason why that just because it's a mine it should be turned into some sort of adventure playground for the incompetent! Personally I feel that as with most other adventurous things it should be changed as little as possible in order to make it possible.

Apart from the bolts and possibly one section of steel cable across one of the missing sections of ‘bridge’ I don’t see that there’s any other fixed gear that is essential in order for a competent party of cavers/mine explorers to complete the traverse. As for the argument that you don’t have to use the cables - this is clearly nonsense! The very fact that they are there fundamentally reduces the commitment required for the trip. I also think that the matter that somebody has clearly gone to some time and expense to install all of this stuff to be fairly irrelevant. Personally I’d have spent the time removing all of the bits of shitty old climbing rope and knackered dingys! [/rant]

George.

 

[cap n chris]

Do you forage through the wilderness with a machete or drive to Tescos? Just a thought.

 

[bubba]

I'm afraid I don't agree at all! I don't see any reason why that just because it's a mine it should be turned into some sort of adventure playground for the incompetent! Personally I feel that as with most other adventurous things it should be changed as little as possible in order to make it possible.

Apart from the bolts and possibly one section of steel cable across one of the missing sections of ‘bridge’ I don’t see that there’s any other fixed gear that is essential in order for a competent party of cavers/mine explorers to complete the traverse. As for the argument that you don’t have to use the cables - this is clearly nonsense! The very fact that they are there fundamentally reduces the commitment required for the trip. I also think that the matter that somebody has clearly gone to some time and expense to install all of this stuff to be fairly irrelevant. Personally I’d have spent the time removing all of the bits of shitty old climbing rope and knackered dingys! [/rant]

 

[cap n chris]

What's your take on Via Ferrata?

 

[bubba]

Personally I absolutely love Via Ferratae, but am also happy that they are (mainly) in the Dolomites and not on our rather limited resources of mountain territory....although there is now that one in the Lakes of course.

I really don't think it desirable that people start making their own via ferratae wherever they feel like it in our caves or on our mountains.

 

[vanoord]

I'm afraid I don't agree at all! I don't see any reason why that just because it's a mine it should be turned into some sort of adventure playground for the incompetent! Personally I feel that as with most other adventurous things it should be changed as little as possible in order to make it possible.
...
The very fact that they are there fundamentally reduces the commitment required for the trip.
...
Personally I’d have spent the time removing all of the bits of shitty old climbing rope and knackered dingys! [/rant]

('gardened' for clarity)

Well... we'll have to differ!

I fail to see who 'we' are to judge who should - and who should not - do this trip. In the particular case of this bridge, I can't see the argument for not having it there: it would add nothing to the trip in terms of 'excitement', other than the ball-ache of having to inflate a dinghy for a 30 ft crossing, then deflate it for the much harder dinghy crossing later on. Yes you could swim it, but you could also swim the other chambers and if you're really keen on swimming, you could avoid using the miners track up the Cwmorthin valley and swim up the lake if you're wanting to prove a point...  :

My over-riding concern with this trip is that - due to internet in particular - it's now getting a lot of people doing it, perhaps 2-3 times a week at minimum. And no, not all of these are properly prepared; not all are experienced cavers with loads of SRT experience and gear. If the fixed rigging in there deteriorates or fails, it's a matter of time before someone goes in there and gets stuck halfway through, is unable to reverse their steps because they can't ascend up a couple of 80' ropes - and it's going to end up with cave rescue bringing them out. As indeed has exactly happened before.

So given the fact that people are going to do it, my opinion is that it needs to be as safe as possible within the boundaries of reasonableness - so if someone decides to install a zip wire across the chamber of horrors, yes, I'll be sorely tempted to see if it can swim. Similarly, I don't like the second zip wire, which is why there are plans afoot to re-rig the traverse round that chamber as a more 'traditional' - and, yes, challenging - alternative. Similarly, there's a longer term plan to add a fixed rope in Rhosydd to open up a second way out that bypasses the squeeze but requires a new 30' ascent. None of that lot qualifies as an 'adventure playground' imho.

The 'problem' with the CRTT is that it's not the trip is was five years ago: it's evolved and has a lot more people through it. The safeguards that are there now need to be there in order to prevent the numpties from damaging themselves. Making the trip more difficult in order to dissuade said numpties isn't going to work, because either they'll break themselves halfway through or they'll not be able to get out. Fine, damage a couple of numpties and it will dissuade the rest, but all that'll achieve is to persuade the landowner(s) to fill in the adits. And that's the day that we've collectively failed.

Besides, if you feel the trip isn't challenging enough, then do it backwards

 

[cap n chris]

I really don't think it desirable that people start making their own via ferratae wherever they feel like it in our caves or on our mountains.

... the corollary is that such structures should only result from consultation or group decisions rather than being the work of fired-up individuals/small(er) groups - in practice this would mean that nothing gets done (or if it does, it gets done so slowly and at such expense that the Government would be made to look efficient). "Out of sight, out of mind" means that it is far more likely for such obstacle courses to be successfully created underground than on the surface and, when you think about it, a lot of caving boils down to people enjoying obstacle courses. I can fully understand why people have created the C/R structures; surely these are only the modern day equivalents of the ancient rotting bridges which still remain? 

 

[vanoord]

... the corollary is that such structures should only result from consultation or group decisions rather than being the work of fired-up individuals/small(er) groups - in practice this would mean that nothing gets done (or if it does, it gets done so slowly and at such expense that the Government would be made to look efficient). "Out of sight, out of mind" means that it is far more likely for such obstacle courses to be successfully created underground than on the surface and, when you think about it, a lot of caving boils down to people enjoying obstacle courses. I can fully understand why people have created the C/R structures - presumably for the same reason(s) do it; surely these are only the modern day equivalents of the ancient rotting bridges which still remain? 

For once I find myself in complete agreement! 

Presumably in a cave it's considered more appropriate not to use any fixed ropes or bolts? I think the point with the CRTT is that it has a huge amount of variety in crossing various obstacles. There's a zip wire, a traverse, an original bridge, the 'Bridge of Death', a lake to boat across, a couple of descents, an ascent, so why not a ladder bridge for variety's sake?

 

[ChrisJC]

I would say that in the case of Croesor -> Rhosydd, the trip itself has very little of mining interest left, and that those people who do it are generally doing it for sporting reasons rather than industrial archaeology.
So therefore I don't see a problem treating it as an assault course, in whatever way people see fit.

If people want genuine mines of interest where exploration is needed (and you are likely to find artefacts and uncover new ground) then you won't be going to Croesor anyway.

Chris.

 

[stma]

Personally I don't have a problem with any rigging in the mine(s). Instead lets thank people for doing an excellent job of making it safe(r) for 'COMPETENT' people to do it.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I would say that in the case of Croesor -> Rhosydd, the trip itself has very little of mining interest left, and that those people who do it are generally doing it for sporting reasons rather than industrial archaeology.
So therefore I don't see a problem treating it as an assault course, in whatever way people see fit.

If people want genuine mines of interest where exploration is needed (and you are likely to find artefacts and uncover new ground) then you won't be going to Croesor anyway.

Chris.

Not being familiar with the site, I will take your word for it.

However, there are mines local to me over which some cavers have taken a similar stance. Not so, I say. Even the most trampled and abused sites I am referring to still surprise us with new information. It's there for those prepared to look for it. Obstacle courses to some. Valuable archaeological resource to others.

 

[prahja]

Just for information - WRT the bridge I think sabotage can be safely ruled out - they would have had to throw a multi-ton boulder on to the bridge or rip out one through bolt and snap off three more (and then place the boulder in the middle of the bridge underwater).

Fun trip though...

A.

 

[Langthwaite Pot]

It's safe to say that it was hit by rockfall then?!

Scary stuff

 

[prahja]

It's safe to say that it was hit by rockfall then?!

Yes.

Probably just worth mentioning that, as of the 14th July, the fixed aids (including ropes) are all in good condition and there are plenty of boats that still hold air in the CoH. (You now need one for the metal bridge !) As has already been said, it's the condition of the roof that is scary, not the dangly/wet bits.

A.

 

[james]

I am in favour of fixed aids.  I am just waiting for the local outdoor pursiuts centre to put scaffolding and fixed ladders in the main shaft of Gaping Gill.