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    The publication date for issue 289 is the 10th of December, meaning subscribers should receive their copies during the week leading up to that date. It is also available from caving suppliers such as Inglesport and Starless River, or from our new website

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CSCC Locks

ChrisJC

Well-known member
aricooperdavis said:
Instead I'd be interested to know how many legitimate cavers they keep out because it's more faff to organize a trip. That's the big issue.

Certainly it will keep me out. I don't go caving very often (I go mine exploring every 3-4 weeks though). When I do go caving, it can be anywhere in the country, and since it is generally a single day trip from a long way away, I will want somewhere that I can just drive to and go in.

As a consequence, I have never visited a lot of places, some of which are reputed to be quite good!

Chris.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
.....Instead I'd be interested to know how many legitimate cavers they keep out because it's more faff to organize a trip. That's the big issue.

Indeed, this is a major point.  Although the caving community 'bubble' is the significant group, and I expect access for the vast majority within it is easy, there will be other cavers on the outside who do not know the system nor have the local connections which others find so easy.

There are parallels to the permit system in the Dales which I am more familiar with.  Similarly it was claimed to be a simple system for all legitimate cavers, and it was, for those in the know and within the caving community bubble.  Just as with the keys on Mendip, local cavers, regulars if you like, could get a permit with ease.

As I got involved with access in the north, and coming from outside the permit community bubble myself, I realised many legitimate groups were either put off by it or ignored it.  These could be groups of individual cavers or clubs from outside the area and likely some from outside of BCA membership too. 

Just one of many examples of this was a group of National Park rangers who had stopped caving in the Dales as legitimate access through the permit system was too much 'faff'.  This came to light, by chance, at a National Park meeting which I attended to promote caving.  The permit system had been a barrier to this group for many years and was an eye-opener to the plight of other legitimate cavers.

The point is that within the 'caving community bubble' you don't really get to know who you are putting off caving in your area.  No one really does.  Why do anything about it when the community is happy with the system?  That very much depends on the attitude of those in charge and whether they want to encourage caving, remove barriers and open up to a much wider outdoor demographic.

That is my experience anyway.
 

PeteHall

Moderator
Badlad said:
The point is that within the 'caving community bubble' you don't really get to know who you are putting off caving in your area.  No one really does.  Why do anything about it when the community is happy with the system?  That very much depends on the attitude of those in charge and whether they want to encourage caving, remove barriers and open up to a much wider outdoor demographic.

PeteHall said:
For those who choose to cave outside an established club, or the BCA, access to a CSCC key may be more problematic and the CSCC is actively looking at how it can better represent and support these people
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
To be honest, my most hated cave access system is 'call at house'; much happier picking up some keys from somewhere than going around knocking on doors!
 

NewStuff

New member
It certainly keeps me out, I'm not interested in jumping through hoops that simply don't need to be there. If the place is really interesting enough, there are always ways to open gates *without damaging them*. I'm certainly not in a tiny percentage, as certain sides like to claim, I'm merely pissed off enough about certain situations to get gobby about it. Most people won't speak up as they rather dislike the unofficial blacklisting they receive, and most can't open up places without damage, so it's a much more looming threat, and those that issue these threats know this well.
 

kay

Well-known member
To follow up Badlad?s point about the different experience of those not in the ?caving bubble?, again in the North. Access was a huge deterrent. ?Apply on club headed notepaper? was obviously impossible. ?Informal? channels weren?t available to me. I went through Northern Caves marking all those caves within my capability that had no access restrictions - and was left with a tiny fraction of those caves within my capabilities. 

In those days it ruled out all the ?write to NCC? caves; nowadays all NE land is open access.

As an individual caver in the North, access is hugely easier than it was in the 90s, thanks to Badlad and others in the CNCC, NE and its Cave Adviser, the CNCC website which gives up-to-date access arrangements and an easy booking system.
 

droid

Active member
Be careful what you wish for.

If you haven't got the nous to look up how to access a key, you probably haven't got the nous to do the cave without causing damage.

'Conservation' and all that...
 

ChrisJC

Well-known member
droid said:
Be careful what you wish for.

If you haven't got the nous to look up how to access a key, you probably haven't got the nous to do the cave without causing damage.

'Conservation' and all that...

That's pretty controversial!

I don't think it's about 'nous'. You can decline with the faff of getting a key / visiting somebodies house at 6am en-route, etc., etc. whilst still having plenty of nous.

Chris.
 

2xw

Active member
What is nous? Is this yet another barrier to access. Who do I have to nous to get into upper flood and can I do it in public?
 

droid

Active member
2xw said:
What is nous? Is this yet another barrier to access. Who do I have to nous to get into upper flood and can I do it in public?

There goes another rib... :LOL:
 

Fulk

Well-known member
I don?t know the Derbyshire caving area at all well, so I guess if it works for the guys who cave regularly there, then that?s fine; nevertheless, I do find it a bit surprising that all that?s necessary to gain access to many Derbyshire caves is an adjustable spanner. I?m just surprised that ?undesirable elements? haven?t realized just how easy it is to gain access.
 

Jenny P

Member
Ah, but the 'undesireable elements' round this part of the world tend to resort to portable angle grinders (or even oxy-acetylene cutters in the past) if DCA makes life too difficult, so they will get in if they are really determined - and some of them are really, really determined.  And that's not cheap to put right, so this seems the best compromise all round so far, given that multiple locks and keys are more expensive anyway.

After the B******s used the oxy-acetylene cutting gear on the Clayton Adit at Ecton Mine back in the 1970s, the owner gave in and walled up the entrance - end of access for all.  (Though it did avoid the risk to local kids of a 900 foot flooded shaft in the middle of the chamber with ankle deep water which you walked across - which was the reason for the lock in the first place.)  Now portable angle-grinders are the thing so DCA does the best it can.
 

paul

Moderator
[gmod]Posts specifically about Owl Hole in the Peak District split from here and moved to https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=28186.0[/gmod]
 
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