First time caver-name of easy longish cave needed

[kay]

I'd certainly consider a mine instead with a reasonably horizontal gradient for a lone trip.

Because of it's designed nature I'd imagine this would be, in principle, safer than a naturally formed cave.

Ahem!

Vertical shafts linking one level to another.
The 'deads' piled up on wooden floors - several tons of rock on top of wood that has been gently rotting for 150 years or so.
Vertical shaft downward temporarily covered with wood (again gently rotting for 150 years) with a 4 inch layer of well trodden mud and gravel on top so you don't know it's there..
Maze-like warren of tiny passages to get at every last bit of ore, all looking exactly like each other
Man-made space created by someone removing all the support for the ceiling ...

I'm not saying caves are safe, but mines and caves have their different dangers. I strongly advise going with someone else on your first trip - if nothing else, log on here the instant you know you can go, and try and get someone to go with you.

 

[SamT]

Where are you going to be geographically (it sounds like your away with work or something, and want to get out whilst your away).

If you say "yorkshire dales", then you may get different suggestions than if you say "norwich"

 

[martinr]

If you say "yorkshire dales", then you may get different suggestions than if you say "norwich"

Norwich 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Look out for the trolls.

 

[SamT]

Norwich

 

[mrodoc]

How about a mine like Box?

How to get lost without trying

 

[Hammy]

I would be really grateful if anybody could supply the name of a longish cave(over 2km) anywhere in the uk with relatively undemanding(for an early middle age novice) walks and crawls and needing no specialist diving equipment, where I could just turn up, and are unlikely to get stuck(my biggest fear).

Great Douk Cave in the Yorkshire Dales might well fit the bill for a quality caving experience.....

 

[ronaldjprice]

Hi T.J.,
          Hope you enjoy your first cave as much as I did my second cave, on my first ever caving trip, short though it was, I was following the arrow on my GPS eagerly awaiting entering my first cave, the guide book said grade1 no hazards or problems.....then sill following the GPS arrow in the mist....I came across an abyss that I nearly fell down, still shaking from this near death experience, I made my way down into the cave that was full of litter and pooh and dead animal remains, decided to go home and have a rethink.

I contacted a caving club, BCC as it happens, a chap from there arranged to take me to Long Churns on a mutually agreed day, told me all about the system and its dangers and beauty's, the club provided me with all the equipment required, I was totally exhausted by the time I had been shown through the cave, but that was my introduction to caving.

I am now a member of a different club, but most will go out of their way to help novice cavers safely into the sport, please take the advice that has been offered on this forum, and at least for your first few trips take along someone with experience, it is IMHO the most important piece of kit second to a good light you will get.

Happy Caving
Ron

 

[Pitlamp]

If you do go to Yordas mind you don't fall on your backside down a mud slope just inside the entrance because your eyes haven't adapted from bright sunshine outside. Far more important - be aware that the water rises FAST if there is just a short sharp shower outside (which you may not be aware of once underground). I'm particularly thinking about the downstream crawls.

Solo caving is perferctly legitimate but only when you have enough experience to do it safely. I'd not recommend it until you've been caving many times in varied underground terrain. Even then it needs greater than the usual amount of forethought and preparation. Apart from safety considerations, if you do your first trip in the company of an experienced caver you will probably have a far more rewarding experience as well.

 

[tj]

May thanks for the detailed and potentially life saving advice.

I am based in London(yes I know)

The nature of my job means I can't predict when I might be free. However when I do get time off it can be as much as 72 hrs.

I also am, by personality, slightly antisocial and have always preferred solo activivities.

I still think the idea of doing a structurally sound disused mine with a horizontalish gradient(is this open cast?) for the first time perhaps looks a safer bet than a cave - does anyone know of one? The legal responsibility would be entirely my own - I'm pretty sure there is no implied responsibility to advice on internet chat groups.

I'm really grateful for the advice which really I should be paying for.

 

[graham]

Almost by definition, no disused mine will be structurally sound. Having removed a large part of the "stuff" holding up the surface above and replaced it with an (intentionally) temporary series of supports*, the miner is aware that his structures need maintenance if his safety is to be assured. Once the mine is abandoned, no maintenance will take place and the supporting structures will steadily deteriorate. Some are maintained by mine explorers and cavers and some types of mine are inherently safer than others but none can be relied on.

On the whole, caves are structurally safer than mines, but mines can be easier to traverse. Each has its own challenges.



*Permanent ones would be prohibitively expensive.

 

[paul]

It may also be worth having a look at the CRO's 2009 Incidents and the DCRO Call Outs Page for an idea of what can go wrong...

 

[tj]

""Almost by definition, no disused mine will be structurally sound. Having removed a large part of the "stuff" holding up the surface above and replaced it with an (intentionally) temporary series of supports*, the miner is aware that his structures need maintenance if his safety is to be assured. Once the mine is abandoned, no maintenance will take place and the supporting structures will steadily deteriorate.""

Are there not occasions when the mining company/Enviromental Safety is legally obliged to make sure that the abondonded mine does not collapse, particularly if it goes under conurbations,roads,rail etc - in order that it does not affect the overhead structures.

Apologies for arguing with someone who is obviously an expert, but if nothing else this might thread might be instructive for other idiots as well as myself who might be lurking out there.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Apologies for arguing with someone who is obviously an expert, but if nothing else this might thread might be instructive for other idiots as well as myself who might be lurking out there.

I must be an idiot then. I am finding it very instructive. 

 

[graham]

""Almost by definition, no disused mine will be structurally sound. Having removed a large part of the "stuff" holding up the surface above and replaced it with an (intentionally) temporary series of supports*, the miner is aware that his structures need maintenance if his safety is to be assured. Once the mine is abandoned, no maintenance will take place and the supporting structures will steadily deteriorate.""

Are there not occasions when the mining company/Enviromental Safety is legally obliged to make sure that the abondonded mine does not collapse, particularly if it goes under conurbations,roads,rail etc - in order that it does not affect the overhead structures.

Apologies for arguing with someone who is obviously an expert, but if nothing else this might thread might be instructive for other idiots as well as myself who might be lurking out there.

That is an extremely good question. I do not know what the current legislation is on the matter of planning consents and new operations, but AFAIK the majority of new sites are open cast anyway, so later subsidence is not an issue.

As far as pre-existing workings are concerned there are a number of different situations. The most significant of these is probably the situation surrounding coal mines. If you own property in a coal mining area and subsidence occurs then the Coal Authority, the successor to the NCB will pay statutory compensation. Given that most coal mines in this country were worked using longwall methods, which specifically allow the mined out areas to close up again, some subsidence will doubtless take place but as most of them were pretty damned deep, then it doesn't always have a significant surface effect. I must stress that this compensation is paid even when the coal was worked long before the mines were nationalised.

In other cases, such as the shallow stone mines near Bath, much backfilling and stabilisation work has been paid for by the local authorities.

Metalliferous mines do not have such statutory cover and in areas such as the tin mining areas of Cornwall this can be a serious issue. The problem is normally shaft collapse rather than more generalized subsidence, though.

 

[martinr]

Are there not occasions when the mining company/Enviromental Safety is legally obliged to make sure that the abondonded mine does not collapse, particularly if it goes under conurbations,roads,rail etc - in order that it does not affect the overhead structures.

Not always. See this report

The area was used extensively for iron ore mining and the collapse is thought to have been caused by subsidence. It seems that the bungalows had been built over a 523feet deep mine shaft.....  The local press, not wanting to alarm people , printed the following quotation from a local mines explorer: "It would be ill-advised to frighten people unnecessarily, but most of Egremont sits on top of the mines? Mine collapses are not unknown in this part of Cumbria. In 1990, a 980 foot deep shaft opened in Brigg. And an even deeper shaft (1300 feet) opened up following subsidence a few years ago at Baybarrow. The Brigg subsidence cost ?110,000 to fill in 1990

(I worked for the housing association at the time of the Egremont collapse)

 

[tj]

To clarify does an open cast have no tunnel or just a shallow tunnel?

Would it be true that mines with shallow tunnels might have more integrity in their actual tunnels because they would be cheaper to maintain and also potentially more dangerous to the surface enviroment than deep ones - plus less weight on their supports? 

But ultimately I am really after names of mines that are already used for caving like experiences.

Regarding Yordas is the vertical cavern the only way in? ie do you need to rig a rope to get in or is it possible to walk in/climb in manually?

Thanks

 

[graham]

The wife, a solicitor, says that she is not aware of any search agency for such problems in Cumbria. It's a bit of a bugger, really.

Martin, how old were those workings?

 

[martinr]

The wife, a solicitor, says that she is not aware of any search agency for such problems in Cumbria. It's a bit of a bugger, really.

Martin, how old were those workings?

Adjacent to Florence Mine, Egremont in Cumbria........Iron Ore mining has taken place around this area for a very long time, but became more serious and industrialised in 1830.

Source

 

[Peter Burgess]

Hi jt. As you are London based, it is unfortunate that all the mine sites you could visit are under some form of access control or are otherwise out of bounds. You will need to travel some way to find something you can just turn up ad hoc and explore. Otherwise you are limited to a few show 'caves' such as Hastings, which is not really what you are asking for, of course.....

Nearest sites would be the Wiltshire stone mines which are outside my patch regarding suitability etc. You really do need to find someone to take you round initially.