Author Topic: winnats Head survey?  (Read 2350 times)

Offline benshannon

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winnats Head survey?
« on: October 28, 2019, 03:55:14 pm »
hey, im going to winnats head tomorrow with some friends. one knows the cave very well, but i always like to have a survey just for my own happiness. however, previous searches on here and in my caves of the peak district are fruitless. has anyone got a survey they wouldnt mind sending me please?

thanks

Offline Rob

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2019, 03:59:26 pm »
Here's one. Might not be of much use for navigational purposes though...
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Offline benshannon

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2019, 04:21:41 pm »
many thanks :)

Offline pwhole

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2019, 06:13:43 pm »
I found a few half-completed basic plan surveys of Winnats Head recently in the Chapel library, possibly made by John Beck, or maybe Chris Fox - I'd never seen anything in plan before and it was very useful to see, though sadly I think it only went down to Fox Chamber area. That would be a good one to have, especially as regards overlaying it on surface features.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2019, 07:21:58 am »
Well if it was Foxy, then we'd be able to modernise it, i'm sure.

or failing that would make a good new project for people wanting to learn how to be cold and productive.
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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2019, 09:44:28 am »
Well if it was Foxy, then we'd be able to modernise it, i'm sure.

or failing that would make a good new project for people wanting to learn how to be cold and productive.

Its on the survex model so someone must have the data.

Offline SamT

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2019, 01:24:38 pm »

I've got all the data, original survey notes, original sketches etc from John beck down to fox chamber and the extensions beyond the sewer from Pete Ward. 

Its all on the survex model and I have a half drawn up therion model.  Ran out of time/energy to persevere through the vagaries of therion to complete it all.

Phil - if you're ever passing - pop in for a brew and I can let you have it all.

 :coffee:

Offline alastairgott

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2019, 05:30:25 pm »
Sam, if you want me to have a crack at it, or i'm helping to run a course for SUSS on survey training in the new year. It might be a good task, and in a cave which a few of them like a lot.

Guess there might be about 12+ SUSS which I'll be giving an insight into Therion, so If I give say 6 of them the Plan stuff to look at and 6 of them the Elevation, I think we could have a good therion file set for it at the end of a weekend.

SUSS are raring to go though, I had to say no to them for two weeks time. I've got a weekend at the Library next weekend geeking, so just wanted some exercise on the 15th/16th rather than computer-ing.  :alien:
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Offline SqueezyPete

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2019, 05:14:44 pm »
 Judging by the survey that was posted we found a rope in Fox Chamber. Just dangling down from the roof with a rebelay and no discernible (to my eyes) way it could have been installed from the bottom, any idea where it came from/goes to?

Offline Graigwen

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2019, 05:16:43 pm »
Judging by the survey that was posted we found a rope in Fox Chamber. Just dangling down from the roof with a rebelay and no discernible (to my eyes) way it could have been installed from the bottom, any idea where it came from/goes to?

Is it part of the Indian Rope Trick?

Offline martinb

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2019, 09:12:59 pm »
Judging by the survey that was posted we found a rope in Fox Chamber. Just dangling down from the roof with a rebelay and no discernible (to my eyes) way it could have been installed from the bottom, any idea where it came from/goes to?

Its a fair few years since I went into Winnats Head, I seem to rememeber someone saying there was a couple of tubes and a dig at high level......

Offline Goydenman

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2019, 09:48:56 am »
Judging by the survey that was posted we found a rope in Fox Chamber. Just dangling down from the roof with a rebelay and no discernible (to my eyes) way it could have been installed from the bottom, any idea where it came from/goes to?

Its a fair few years since I went into Winnats Head, I seem to rememeber someone saying there was a couple of tubes and a dig at high level......

The rope to the roof was climbed from the chamber nothing significant found. Part way down Cornwall Avenue before Fox chamber is traverse along wall into tubes, Harper Hill series with abandoned dig at the mud sump.

Offline SamT

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2019, 09:08:43 pm »
Been meaning to post since I saw this.

As Chris says, modern lighting revealed some inlet type tubes in the roof of Fox Chamber.  Dan Hibberts and (I think) Rob Eavis bolt climbed the side of the chamber to investigate, but they were blind.  I think it was on the cover of Descent mag (Dan with war paint on IIRC).  The rope was abandoned. Guess it should really be gotten rid off. (Rig a pull through and pull the rope down after you??).

We surveyed the Harper Hill series a few years ago.  I wondered if the water/sump at the downstream end of it, connected through to the water/mud that enters from the right, at the rock bridge, half way up the 'up pitches'  However, the survey doesn't line up.  Could be an error in the survey, but I think everything seems to add up ok.  Dye test would confirm it for definite.


Offline Rob

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2019, 10:20:08 am »
Sam's right, me n Dan put that rope in Fox Chamber. It didn't go anywhere so we probably should have derigged it but didn't have enough time or a long enough rope. And yes, not the prettiest picture of Dan!  ;D

Sam, if you want me to have a crack at it, or i'm helping to run a course for SUSS on survey training in the new year. It might be a good task, and in a cave which a few of them like a lot.

Great to hear some SUSS people might be keen. Winnats Head is a nice survey project that would benefit from a complete redoing (the 3D model has data from 4 different teams, much from the 70s and 80s), but it's certainly not any easy project for beginners and not in one weekend! Just getting all the data would take many trips.

Sam, not sure we have your Harper Hill data....?
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Offline alastairgott

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2019, 03:24:02 pm »
Was thinking about with the sketches we could stitch it all together to get an idea how to do so when you’ve got trad or electronic out of the cave.

If there’s any bits which need more detail, then they can go back in at a later date and stitch them into the bits which Sam has.
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Offline pwhole

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2019, 09:27:28 pm »
This would be a great thing to get moving if possible. And Sam, I often am passing, so may take you up on that offer of a brew sometime anyway ;)

Offline Wardy

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2019, 10:17:04 pm »
Gents
I am happy to assist with advice on this which would be a great project and there are still a number of areas of interest that are often overlooked yet require attention.
At the same time it would also be worthwhile re doing the dye testing as this has never been completed properly.

I carried out the survey from Fox chamber onwards which due to the chokes and damp was challenging, but somewhat overshadowed by poor politics from the established clubs. The eventual survey was completed without aid from those credited and it is still disappointing that the credits in the Caves of the Peak District are incorrect.

A nice complete re survey of the lot gets my vote and should be a catalyst to revisiting the leads.
Wardy

Offline benshannon

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2019, 10:16:22 am »
There are a few of us at NUCC that would defo help. It was sad to see in fox chamber that people have put big mud hand prints and thrown mud balls onto the beautiful clean calcite walls. Maybe this could be cleaned off? I did take photos

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2019, 02:14:25 pm »

......
I carried out the survey from Fox chamber onwards which due to the chokes and damp was challenging, but somewhat overshadowed by poor politics from the established clubs. The eventual survey was completed without aid from those credited and it is still disappointing that the credits in the Caves of the Peak District are incorrect.
......



I'd like to hear more about this story.  Sounds intriguing.  Nothing worse than being written out of history

Offline alastairgott

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2019, 04:47:36 pm »
Wardy, are you pretty happy that the centreline through the cave is accurate? Or would you go for a full resurvey?
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Offline alastairgott

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2019, 06:09:00 pm »
Just had another look at the survex, I can see that quite a bit of it IS yours wardy :) I think we could get quite a way with what sketches you and Sam have already.
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Offline alastairgott

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2019, 10:11:00 pm »
Just logged into my email and had one from Rob. I've got the survex data which I can convert into the data which drives therion quite easily. and I've got plan sketches of various parts of the cave of which Wardy's is one. That'll save an initial trip to the end to get a full plan.

Though as both Rob and Wardy have said, probably best in the long term to redo. So it'll probably be a case of making data redundant in the long term, and making some prime points on either side of the choke to fix the survey before the choke and after the choke.

Judging by the other year, SUSS had their Expedition training a couple of months into the calendar year, so not long to wait :)
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Offline SamT

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2019, 11:14:41 pm »

I've got a fairly advanced therion file. I'll get it over to you - (need to spark up an older laptop some time).

Rob - I thought I'd put the Harpur Hill stuff in the Peak Master folder - is that not the case??

Offline SamT

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2019, 08:32:07 am »
Knew there was a history tread on here somewhere - found it.

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=4757.msg68224#msg68224

Begs the question - what happened to the wiki - is it still alive??

Offline SamT

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2019, 08:49:09 am »
Also - for completeness - survey history.

John Beck and Ben Bentham surveyed from entrance to Fox Chamber.
Pete Ward and Disley Underground Group, (Lofty Loftus?) discovered and surveyed down from fox chamber, through the sewer and beyond into the streamway pitches.
Myself and Jon Pemberton of the Eldon, surveyed the Harpur Hill series.

My aim was always to produce a decent high grade publishable section (which everyone is probably familar with) but also a plan, which is sadly lacking and would give a good idea of potential leads.

Be good if we can get the project up and running again.

Offline A_Northerner

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2019, 09:23:24 am »
Keen to help out with anything - Winnats is my #1 Derbyshire Cave, didn't realise there were still projects down there.
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Offline SamT

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2019, 12:09:30 pm »
I can let you know a few key survey stations from the original survey that would be good to use again, just so they tie the old surveys and new surveys together.  In fact, could be persuaded out of retirement to join a surveying trip.

Offline benshannon

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2019, 09:05:19 pm »
What's the harbour hill series? Is it worth an explore? We just went down to the sump

Offline alastairgott

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2019, 09:40:43 pm »
Begs the question - what happened to the wiki - is it still alive??

seems to still be in the bowels of the internet https://ukcaving.com/wiki/index.php?title=Winnat%27s_Head_Cave
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Offline Goydenman

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2019, 11:27:52 pm »
What's the harbour hill series? Is it worth an explore? We just went down to the sump
Harper Hill Series as in Harper Hill Buxton. Fascinating old series hidden behind wall of Cornwall Avenue…...crawl into rift going upwards to the right and down to the left. Left ends at a mud sump. Was dug by the use of dams but did not manage to get a way on.

Offline pwhole

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2019, 12:00:37 am »
I'd be particularly interested to know the bearing of the vein that traverses the roof of the big sump pool at the base of the chokes. Also, has anyone else noticed the large amount of mineral gravel in that area? There are a few 'lost' mines in the Winnats Head area, and whilst I doubt miners found their way down there, it also doesn't look that naturally shattered. I've seen a piece of dark purple fluorite in there somewhere higher up that was the size of a beachball, and I seem to remember I found a piece of galena last time I was down there - I left it at the base of the vertical squeeze. It's a fascinating place and no mistake.

Offline SamT

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2019, 11:48:39 am »

Harper hill series is worth a poke.  Its quite pokey getting in/out of it, as you traverse on a ledge and the drop quite quickly becomes ankle breaking height with a weird move to get into/out of the crawl.

I wasn't overly struck with potential leads in there.

I've always thought there is a lot of what look like tailings in the chokes phil.

perhaps the survey team to could measure the bearing on that vein.  Its quite substantial.

Offline pwhole

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2019, 12:12:50 am »
If you look along Longcliffe Vein on the Survex model, with Victoria Aven nearest you, Winnats Head lines up perfectly, with the vein line cutting through the pass twice, going near Buttress Hole on the other side. I'm not saying it's relevant yet, just interesting. But I do wonder if the vein is the same one. John Beck's PhD thesis briefly touches on the 'Longcliffe Swallets', which were active when the shale line was way higher than it is now, and I suspect that Winnats Head and possibly Middle Bank Pot were possible input points at their relevant dates. There's a few other interesting fluted but choked holes I've found up there on top that all look like they used to take a surface stream when the water table was higher - one about 50m south off the line of Faucet Rake in some weird 'gruffy ground' that trends toward the top of Cowlow Nick. You can see it clearly on Google Earth. Given that the Longcliffe shaft is a vein cavity and the Halfway House Series also has large examples, it does suggest there may be a line of vertical cavern development that could produce another couple of these somewhere in the hill. Middle Bank Pot especially.

I did really ponder how the miners could have got in to Winnats Head, if indeed they did, as that mineral gravel really does look like riddled spoil, but the only other 'entrance' seen from underground is the choked dig at the back of Main Chamber, and that certainly wasn't accessible in mining times. Poking around in the entrance choke earlier this year, Domee and me found another possible wriggle downwards up and to the right of the present entrance, but we didn't push it. Of course the face of the quarry has collapsed a lot so it may have been a bit easier to get into in the 18th century. But the original diggers opened it up, so I just can't see it. Maybe if it functioned as a swallet after partial phreatic development on the vein the force of the water was sufficient to shatter the vein and dump it all at the bottom, so it's all naturally-produced?

Offline A_Northerner

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2019, 01:08:17 pm »
I'd be particularly interested to know the bearing of the vein that traverses the roof of the big sump pool at the base of the chokes. Also, has anyone else noticed the large amount of mineral gravel in that area? There are a few 'lost' mines in the Winnats Head area, and whilst I doubt miners found their way down there, it also doesn't look that naturally shattered. I've seen a piece of dark purple fluorite in there somewhere higher up that was the size of a beachball, and I seem to remember I found a piece of galena last time I was down there - I left it at the base of the vertical squeeze. It's a fascinating place and no mistake.

I've probably stumbled across the same bit of fluorite down there a few times as well - I've left it on display in Fox Chamber so I can give one of my boring geology talks to freshers when I take them down there!

Would be interesting to find out how the spoil might have got down there, but I suppose we may never know.
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Offline Goydenman

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2019, 06:56:30 pm »
After we found Fox chamber I met old man Revell at Bagshaw he said he’d been in there. Explained how he went down a mine shaft scared out of his mind as a youth in a kibble. They broke through to a large chamber with exit the far side blocked. He could not remember formations and description I thought matched Main chamber better. I dug that passage at the far side a bit. Noticed how far it’s been dug now...no way did he come in there.....perhaps he was right and it was Fox chamber. Do you know what the mine is he would have gone down at the top of the pass?

Offline pwhole

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2019, 09:52:30 pm »
There were possibly up to three mines in Winnats Pass I think - Winyates Grove for one, but there was also a Winnats Head Mine, I'm certain of it, but no-one knows where either were. One is almost certainly the large spoil heaps above the bend in the road, roughly below Hiatt Cave - there are at least two blocked shafts there. Jim Rieuwerts speculated in the latest Mining History that Winyates Grove could have been an adit entrance at or close to road level that drove into the west end of Longcliffe Vein - as in, the furthest western extremities of the Halfway House Series. One to ponder.  It was owned by the Bagshawes, and they were working it in 1709, at the same time they were getting stuck into Longcliffe Mine and Odin - and the veins around where Treak Cliff is now - was it New Knab Vein? They were busy folk.

The blind mine level higher up on the north side can't have been up to much, but there is an apparent backfilled continuation on the opposite side of the road. Also high up near the natural buttress above and to the NW of Old Tor Mine is a backfilled shaft - me and Scud went up there last year. It could have been a Blue John mine, but then again it could be Winnats Head Mine. I can't think where Mr. Revell might have gone though. There's some old mine remains in the field above Winnats Head just before the Rowter Farm track - possibly that was one of them too? But there is definitely more to find up there, I'm certain of it.

Offline Mrs Trellis

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2019, 01:08:12 pm »
The Winnats Pass murders accounts talk of the victims' bodies being hidden in a recently sunk (in 1758)  shaft. Presumably this was in the Winnats and I've always thought that "platform" by the road , after the bend ascending, beneath Hiatt hole to be a prime candidate.  Imho this area will reward investigation if possible.
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Offline Wardy

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2019, 09:26:04 pm »
Hi Alastair
Sorry for the delay as I was abroad last week and being old school still wait to get home to log on to he internet!!!!!!

Anyway I guess the survey should be pretty good.
Whilst difficult, surveying the choke was in effect a corkscrew descent and so would have little effect on the overall.
Then the main areas of horizontal progress were the easiest to survey and follow a trend.
I did draw up a plan and will look it out, but as progress was mainly vertical it was of less interest.
I was initially keen to look at the top end of the pitches and see where it could re appear, but there is no obvious feature to link it to and we finished it still quite a way below the surface level.
It was one of my hopes that we could have opened a top entrance to the pitches and streamy as it would make a great trip and also provide interesting though trip options.

I understand from Pegasus that you won the training course from Hidden Earth. Whilst the prize may not be ideal for you we could meet up to discuss Winnats and you could have a look round if you like.
Wardy

Offline aardgoose

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2019, 04:39:03 pm »

Extract of the peak survex model, with satellite imagery overlaid, north at top. 

Shading by approximate depth below surface.

Offline MarkS

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2019, 04:48:18 pm »
I was in Winnats Head when we bumped into Jeff Wade and Glynn(?) digging at the top of the "up pitches" (can't remember the name). If you were quiet you could hear cars going over the cattle grid!

Offline alastairgott

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2019, 05:59:00 pm »
Wardy, yep that’s me don’t worry spanset are still in my mind. I’ve got a candidate for you. Pegasus was just going to clarify a fine point with you.

I’ve got Wednesday Thursday off this week for revision for an exam. I could pop over briefly for a break, Aston way is about 30mins away.
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Offline Wardy

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Re: winnats Head survey?
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2019, 06:47:06 pm »
Hi Alastair
Thursday works for me, so if you want to let me know what time suits you - 16.00 may be good?
Pete