Author Topic: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)  (Read 1289 times)

Offline liontamerlou

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Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« on: July 03, 2020, 07:03:20 am »
Wow . . . I didn't realize that electric cars are (can be) so cheap to run.

Yeah they can be super cheap to run, I'm using the Octopus Go tariff and it's only 5p/KwH to charge between the hours of 00:30/04:30 which is insanely cheap. You do need a Smart meter though. I've just recently switched the Octopus and can definitely recommend them. Here's my referral link if you would like £50 credit for switching (I also get £50 off my bill) https://share.octopus.energy/sunny-rhino-720. You can also sign-up via this website too https://www.octopusenergyreferral.co/50-credit.

There's some great financial and environmental saving to be had with EVs as you can get your energy from 100% Green sources as well. The problem though is that the cars themselves are quite expensive so for the most part you're not usually saving because the monthly or initial outlay is more expensive but over a looong periood of time you will break even. EVs tend to be good for a lot more miles than ICE cars, Tesla's for instance are good for 500k+ miles and they are expected to announce soon their newer cars are good for 1m miles. They also require less services and less likely to go wrong as less moving parts as they're 'simpler'.

Offline ttxela2

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2020, 10:16:37 am »
Wow . . . I didn't realize that electric cars are (can be) so cheap to run.

Yeah they can be super cheap to run, I'm using the Octopus Go tariff and it's only 5p/KwH to charge between the hours of 00:30/04:30 which is insanely cheap. You do need a Smart meter though. I've just recently switched the Octopus and can definitely recommend them. Here's my referral link if you would like £50 credit for switching (I also get £50 off my bill) https://share.octopus.energy/sunny-rhino-720. You can also sign-up via this website too https://www.octopusenergyreferral.co/50-credit.

There's some great financial and environmental saving to be had with EVs as you can get your energy from 100% Green sources as well. The problem though is that the cars themselves are quite expensive so for the most part you're not usually saving because the monthly or initial outlay is more expensive but over a looong periood of time you will break even. EVs tend to be good for a lot more miles than ICE cars, Tesla's for instance are good for 500k+ miles and they are expected to announce soon their newer cars are good for 1m miles. They also require less services and less likely to go wrong as less moving parts as they're 'simpler'.

I bought a cheap electric motorcycle (Super Soco) secondhand and paid £1600 for it. The battery can be removed and charged off a 3 pin plug so I can charge it at work so at least half my commute is paid for by my employer.... The range is limited (about 40 miles) so only really good for my daily commute but I've kept my petrol car which I paid £600 for 7 years ago for occasional longer trips.

I calculated I only really needed to travel 3600 miles on my bike to break even if I assumed I'd be driving my car instead which is about 6 months commuting for me. Another bug plus is I haven't put a penny into Elon's pockets.....

Online Fulk

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2020, 11:06:49 am »
Three years ago I visited Cuba, where electric motor bikes are fairly common. The problem is, they are virtually soundless, and they creep up on you (there tends to be not much traffic on Cuban streets and people often walk along the road and get a bike up their arse if they're not careful).

Offline ttxela2

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2020, 11:18:17 am »
Three years ago I visited Cuba, where electric motor bikes are fairly common. The problem is, they are virtually soundless, and they creep up on you (there tends to be not much traffic on Cuban streets and people often walk along the road and get a bike up their arse if they're not careful).

I had no idea they were popular in Cuba, from the folks that are in the owners groups on FB they seem popular in Asia and India - I guess places where you would normally expect lots of mopeds etc.

I love mine but I can't get enthusiastic about the idea of an electric car.

I've found the sound issue to be more of a problem with cyclists. Even giving them a wide berth they often seem startled as I pass, I guess most cyclists don't have mirrors. I've thought of sounding my horn as I approach but that's probably just as bad  :lol:

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2020, 11:19:14 am »
This is at risk of straying off topic (and might make a valuable separate topic anyway?) but I've obviously considered an EV - and reluctantly discounted the possibility for the time being.

This is because I don't live in a city (and charging points are still few and far between round here in the Dales) and also because I need a small 4 x 4 and I just haven't seen one of the type I use which isn't petrol or diesel based. Anyone know of any?

The exhorbitant cost to buy an EV is very offputting too.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2020, 12:13:41 pm »
People who know a lot more about sparks than me suggest that a decent sized caving club, which may have 25 to 30 cars on a weekend (having travelled from the far end of the country and all needing a deep charge) would have such great demand it would probably have to have its own sub station.

Online JoshW

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2020, 12:23:11 pm »
I'd also be interested to know if there are any decent caving type electric vehicles about? even the hybrid types would be an improvement.

Offline Ed W

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2020, 12:25:04 pm »
liontamerlou said;

Quote
They also require less services and less likely to go wrong as less moving parts as they're 'simpler'.

Not necessarily...

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/american-survey-claims-tesla-build-quality-issues/

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2020, 12:28:27 pm »
To whoever split this off as a separate topic - thanks.

Must admit I like the idea of a small petrol engine as a fall back option.
I think the problem with a small 4 x 4 is the difficulty of fitting both in. 
I've never come across such a hybrid 4 x 4 model but if anyone is aware of such an option I'd be delighted to know about it. (I did look at Mitsubishi's PHEV 4 x 4 a couple of years ago but it was very expensive, too big a vehicle for me - and the battery range wasn't very good.)

Offline 2xw

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2020, 12:46:12 pm »
Not sure we're at a point where EVs are good for cavers who, due to mileage and road quality will probably be the last people to take them up.
The average journey is 13 miles or somat tho so good for the majority of the population

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2020, 12:56:28 pm »
The UK isn't always a sub tropical paradise - it gets cold. This can reduce range by 40% as batteries become less efficient and you need to use heaters etc.  Adding more load e.g luggage and passengers also add strain on the capacity.  The biggest issue is really current battery technology and their energy density.  It's currently nowhere near as good as hydrocarbon fuels  https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenance-and-tech/problem-with-electric-cars-energy-density/
If circumstances and lifestyles permit an EV could well be a very good a choice.  For me they're pretty much useless as to get anywhere I have to go a long way.
More remote places with limited electric supply would not be able to cope with the demand if several cars need charging at once as they need a lot of energy to recharge.
Maybe other technologies will get better in time such as hydrogen fuel cells.

Offline ttxela2

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2020, 01:11:00 pm »
The UK isn't always a sub tropical paradise - it gets cold. This can reduce range by 40% as batteries become less efficient and you need to use heaters etc.  Adding more load e.g luggage and passengers also add strain on the capacity.  The biggest issue is really current battery technology and their energy density.  It's currently nowhere near as good as hydrocarbon fuels  https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenance-and-tech/problem-with-electric-cars-energy-density/
If circumstances and lifestyles permit an EV could well be a very good a choice.  For me they're pretty much useless as to get anywhere I have to go a long way.
More remote places with limited electric supply would not be able to cope with the demand if several cars need charging at once as they need a lot of energy to recharge.
Maybe other technologies will get better in time such as hydrogen fuel cells.

This is exactly the reason I kept my petrol car and bought the bike for work commuting, I've also got the diesel motorhome for holidays - Although I accept having a range of different vehicles for different purposes is not practical for many folk and is perhaps questionable environmentally even  :-\

Still I maintain that the daily walking pace parade of SUV's, 4X4's and luxury saloons all hauling around 4+ empty seats that used to comprise my daily journey to work in Pre-Covid days was the biggest obviously addressable waste of money, energy and time around the country. It seems to me continuing the same madness but just under electric power is the least imaginitive way of solving it.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2020, 01:25:17 pm »
Agreed - in cities. Very different out here in the outback.

Offline Fjell

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2020, 01:35:08 pm »
You mean you aren't saving up for one of these with a hydrogen fuel cell and optional point defence system?

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ineos/grenadier/96387/new-ineos-grenadier-4x4-prices-specs-and-video-land-rover-defender-rival

My wife eyed it greedily. Could be on.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2020, 02:26:12 pm »
People who know a lot more about sparks than me suggest that a decent sized caving club, which may have 25 to 30 cars on a weekend (having travelled from the far end of the country and all needing a deep charge) would have such great demand it would probably have to have its own sub station.

I think you are probably right. EV charging is pretty high demand on the grid, so trying to get this at a remote caving hut would likely involve considerable upgrades to the local network, as well as a local substation and all the charging points. Wouldn't be surprised if the cost was close to £1M to get a decent supply to somewhere like Bull pot Farm...
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Offline Fjell

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2020, 02:28:19 pm »
The grid demand if everyone has an EV and heat pumps is staggering. I see little sign of it being planned for, let alone built.

Offline SamT

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2020, 02:42:30 pm »
Few wider points.

The human race cannot carry on using petrol and diesel ad infinitum so we need an alternative, and fast. Our lungs and our eco systems cannot cope much longer.

Affluent countries like our own need to pave the way, be the trailblazers, prove the technology, what ever it might be, be the catalyst for the supply chain so that production costs tumble, allowing the poorer countries to follow suit.

You're right re demand on the grid.
Storage on the grid is a problem at the moment, however, if you plug in a few million batteries, you have one great interconnected battery system, that might be able to balance out some supply and demand.

I'm staggered that nobody had thought of standardizing the batteries, so you can whip out the dead ones, and load in some charged ones, at the petrol battery station.  Might actually be quicker than pumping 60l of diesel into them.

Hydrogen fuel cells will probably eventually replace the batteries in electric vehicles.  Battery operated EV's are probably a stop gap.

* There are a few technical hurdles to overcome, but nothing than tech cannot solve
* Humans need to radically alter the way they lead their live, which will probably not happen till the vast majority have been wiped out.

/2p

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2020, 02:56:30 pm »
Not sure we're at a point where EVs are good for cavers who, due to mileage and road quality will probably be the last people to take them up.
The average journey is 13 miles or somat tho so good for the majority of the population

My commute is 14 miles each way and we have free to use EV charging points at work. I worked out that with the purchase cost of an EV it would take me over 5 years to cover my cost and who's to say the battery would last that long.

Instead I bought a 4 year old Renault Megane estate for about £3k that does 65mpg, even fully loaded with caving kit. From full it has a range of over 800 miles and the road tax is free. If I scrapped it next year, it would have been cheaper (and a lot more practical) than and EV.

Unless you get a company car and benefit from the EV tax relief, I can't see what type of use would add up financially yet...
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Offline PeteHall

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2020, 03:00:10 pm »
Affluent countries like our own need to pave the way, be the trailblazers, prove the technology, what ever it might be, be the catalyst for the supply chain so that production costs tumble, allowing the poorer countries to follow suit.

Not sure it will work like that.

Affluent countries like ours will start using EV's and improve the air quality where we live. Our quality of life will improve.

Poorer countries will be deforesting and mining to produce enough materials to make all the batteries, yet they will not reap any benefits. Their quality of life will suffer.

edit: perhaps I'm being too pessimistic...
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Offline Von Trippenhof

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2020, 07:56:22 pm »
I've got an EV, so I can contribute a bit about it in real life. I must say though that I quite like interesting cars and that's part of my decision making process... and for a few years I considered a motorcycle to be a perfectly practical caving vehicle. What I'm saying is your mileage may (quite literaly) vary.

Affordability: My last vehicle that ran directly on squashed dinosaurs was a 10 year old diesel skoda octavia scout. Over the 3 years i had it it cost me 38 pence per mile. I currently hire a BMW i3 on a deal that is inclusive of charging on the polar network. £400 a month, 1000 miles included in the deal = 40p per mile. I don't charge at home (I'm in a flat without the possibility) so that is the all-in cost. So that's 2p per mile more for a vehicle that's 9 years younger.

Practicality: The range we get is ~180 of city driving or ~140 miles of motorway at about 65 mph. During the week, this is more than ample for commuting, especially as I have charging at work. Provided I remember to plug in a couple of times a week at the office, range doesn't feature as a worry. Where it gets a bit more faffy is the weekend away. This takes a bit of planning however as a rapid charger can put in ~120 miles of electric in 20-25 minutes, it doesn't really affect total journey times as much as I expected as it's a pretty similar amount of time to have a wee and cup of tea (certainly by the time my baby is fed and has a fresh nappy, the car is ready to go). This all takes a bit of planning, especially if there is no charging at the destination, but there are plenty of good apps (I use Zap Map) that make it easy.

All in all, I'd say it takes a bit of a mind-shift, mostly around the planning. Overall though, it all fits with my lifestyle with very little adjustment. And it's an adjustment I'm happy to make as I find the car itself interesting to drive and 'own'. I'm only playing at it all with a monthly commitment on the rental, but I can see how the 2021 generation of cars with range ~300 miles will take away the practicality issues for almost everyone who can charge at home.

Ralph

Offline mountainpenguin

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2020, 09:41:14 pm »
Wow there is some rubbish in this thread 40% loss of battery range in cold weather !!!
You do loose range but not 40%. The wind has a big effect too.
In the winter there is a different big bonus. The car being plugged in is pre heated either via an app or via a timer and as this is done from mains it heats up quick without affecting the range. You always start with a full battery and rapid chargers are getting much more plentiful. Some journeys require a bit more planning (though upgrading the battery and therfore range is a possibility)
We are very rural though most of our journeys are < 40 miles we have done more.
however for inspiration have a look at https://blog.zerocarbonadventures.co.uk/ glyn can tell you a lot more about the experience. Note the long trips to spain and europe all on a small battery.
It will have a significant affect on the grid but cars can be used as a house / grid battery too.
The raw efficiency of an EV is amazing
Quote
The average vehicle efficiency in the UK is 30 mpg or 0.68 miles/kWh. An electric car provides an energy saving of 83% compared to the average. A newer 50 mpg petrol car travels 1.13 miles/kWh, an EV would provide a 72% saving in this case.


Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2020, 10:43:01 pm »
Quote
Wow there is some rubbish in this thread 40% loss of battery range in cold weather !!!

Yes, quite agree.  Lies, damned lies, and statistics.  I'm sure anything can be used to argue for and against the same thing.  All good fun to muse over.

https://apnews.com/04029bd1e0a94cd59ff9540a398c12d1#:~:text=DETROIT%20(AP)%20%E2%80%94%20Cold%20temperatures,as%20much%20as%20the%20cold.

I'll stick with petrol for the time being.  You don't have to keep it plugged in to a life support machine to use it.  Funnily enough I did look at a 2nd hand BMW i3 electric car when I swapped my car over in February. I baulked at the cost, not so much the forecourt price but the hidden extras such as the looming replacement battery cost and all the other BMW costs.  So current car is now a small full time 4x4 super mini with £30 road tax. Not perfect, but not too bad at all.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing at all against electric cars, the geek in me generally likes the idea, and go-kart acceleration looks cool.  (I could also use as an excuse to add to my VDE tool collection!)
Thing is they don't suit all at present, and I don't go for all the marketing hype around them.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2020, 10:57:48 pm »
In the winter there is a different big bonus. The car being plugged in is pre heated either via an app or via a timer and as this is done from mains it heats up quick without affecting the range.

If you can plug in at home.

My boss has PHEV,  and lives in the city with on street parking, so no charging at home and as I mentioned earlier, we have free EV charging at work. In the summer he gets home and back to the office on the battery. In winter he's lucky to make it home without the petrol engine.

Part of this is battery efficiency, but also in winter, you need the heating on, lights on, wipers on etc. Before you add the extra drag from a wet road or higher winds.

Regardless of the mechanism, in winter, he gets less than half the miles.

The other point this highlights is that people in the city (where EV's provide most benefit are least likely to have the option to charge at home.

Personally, I don't think there is enough personal incentive yet, an efficient diesel will be cheaper more flexible motoring. But if people don't take it up, the technology won't develop enough to create that incentive, which is where state and corporate support can help.

If companies who claim to be green only provided EV's as pool or company cars, it would boost uptake and also filter more 2nd hand vehicles into the market.
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Offline mountainpenguin

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2020, 11:16:44 pm »
phev well yes at a guess its and outlander? if so its umm special. The heating in those a lot of those is resistive so I can believe a 40% drop and they don't do that well anyway. The leafs etc have a heat pump to provide heat so 3-5 times the efficiency.
I spent *Ages* looking before committing.  There are options for onroad at home charging (connections to lamp post). https://unboxed.co/product-stories/chargy/
They aren't perfect (yet) but they are *very* cheap to run and more practical that you think. I am convinced that a PHEV is the worst of all worlds though ! unreliable ICE and small and therefore hammered low lifespan battery. Our EV needs fewer brake pads as most of the time its re gen braking and other than topping up the screen wash it needs way less maintenance than any ICE. We were *very* nervous when buying it. Its a lot easier now as the batteries are bigger and there are more rapid chargers around. Its definitely not cheaper (for most) to get an efficient diesel though it is still a bit more flexible. So far the depreciation on our car over 3 years is <£1K and its saved us >4K so in cash terms its been a better investment than putting money in the bank!

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2020, 08:54:28 am »
Some really interesting information coming out here - thanks everybody. Wasn't the Outlander the first hybrid 4x4? So not as well evolved as models coming out now?

Pete Hall makes a good point above, with: "if people don't take it up, the technology won't develop enough to create that incentive". I'm really keen to reduce my own carbon footprint but I just can't (yet) identify anything anywhere near as good as the four Suzuki Jimnys I've had over the last 12 years. I'm watching the market though. Another problem for me is I'll probably be buying a used car, so I'd have to wait for second hand ones to start coming on the market.

Sam T also makes a good point about possible battery standardisation. For a long time I've thought that a battery swap arrangement would encourage me more towards an EV. Planning is all well and good (and I'd probably manage that easily in normal circumstances) but sometimes planning isn't really enough. Suppose a family member is suddenly is taken ill some distance away and needs help - if the battery wasn't charged fully (say, because there's plenty of energy for the normal short commute next day) you might not be able to make make the sudden longer emergency journey. A battery swap option would be the obvious solution.

Battery swapping would also get round a concern I've heard expressed - the fact that the battery is really expensive, so purchasers of EVs are (legitimately) worried about resale value, if the battery has degraded.


Offline Von Trippenhof

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2020, 01:03:43 pm »
Pitlamp, On the idea of swappable batteries, a couple of years ago I was seduced by the promo videos of better swap stations. Now though I’ve changed my opinion to ‘probably not’. The battery tech has leapfrogged the need.

The cell technology is jumping on so fast that while the form and fit of the packaged battery hasn’t grown, the storage capacity of the packaged battery has increased hugely. Not just down to cell chemistry, but also manufacture and packaging knowledge. This development is continuing. The life of the cells with improved manufacturing and management is increasing too. So imagine we’re 2025 and you swap your latest tech battery for a fully charged but 2020 tech battery, you’re likely to be disappointed with the range.

There’s also the question of swap speed. To swap out a 400+V battery safely is a bit convoluted. Plus you would need to queue for the bay. All dead time. If you just plug in, you can be doing something useful. Eg. Having a wee. Or in your emergency scenario getting on the phone to the loved one to coordinate care/reassuring chat.

Rapid charge at the current 50 kW will give you 100+ miles in 20 mins. The 150 kW systems that most 2020 cars are capable of and charging infrastructure isrolling out now will cut that to 1/3. You don’t need to charge to full remember - just the range to get to your emergency.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2020, 01:28:46 pm »
phev well yes at a guess its and outlander?
It's actually a BMW X3 with a tiny battery and basically just a tax fiddle for company directors who can afford a posh new car and save on company car tax. However the relative range between summer and winter is presumably comparable to any other EV as relatively speaking, there are the same inefficiencies in winter.

Maybe buying new you might save money buying an EV over a diesel, but for those of us in the 2nd hand market, there just aren't the options.

Even new, I'm not sure what EV's exist that would be suitable to take the family camping in,  certainly not in my usual price range of £300 - £3,000

Servicing an ICE car needn't be expensive. I do all mine once a year and even using premium oil, I typically pay between £40 and £80 depending which vehicle. The V8 costs a bit more as there are 8 spark plugs, which can be a bit pricey,  but at 12mpg, that's the last of my worries  ;D

Regarding lifespan of batteries for EV's, I believe that some manufacturers offer these on lease now, so it's not so much of a worry as it used to be.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2020, 02:35:05 pm »
Thanks VT and PH - both your posts above have told me things I wasn't aware of and are very encouraging.

Living where I do in the Dales, I only actually saw my very first on street charging station recently (a single one, in Whalley near Clitheroe - and it was in use). I'm told they have them at Booths in Kirkby Lonsdale but I never shop there on principle since they started charging for parking. (Settle branch is very good and they don't charge to park.)

I'm lucky in that I could get my motor near enough to the house to use the domestic supply to charge up but if I ran out when out and about locally, there isn't really anywhere to top up. It's not as if you can ring the AA and ask them to bring you a gallon of electricity. (Maybe their vans will contain megabatteries in future, to do a quick boost just to get you going?) I guess this situation will only improve as time goes by.

I've found this an invaluable topic.

Online Fulk

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2020, 02:47:49 pm »
Quote
I'm told they have them at Booths in Kirkby Lonsdale but I never shop there on principle since they started charging for parking.

I'm not 100% sure about this, John, but my understanding is that they – Booths – were obliged to charge under the terms of their arrangement with the local authority, who actually do the charging; Booths go a fair way to ameliorating this by paying for your parking if you spend more that £5.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2020, 03:02:59 pm »
Oh, it's the council is it? That makes me even more determined, after the recent rise in council tax of 5.2% - way above inflation (yet again). I'll stick with Settle branch.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2020, 03:08:51 pm »
Actually - thinking about it - it's not the same council there is it? In which case I'll take that indictment of their greed back.

Online Fulk

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2020, 03:10:48 pm »
Not that SLDC is any less grasping with their poll tax.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2020, 03:34:51 pm »
 :lol:

You just can't win, eh?

Offline Fjell

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Offline JeremyG

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2020, 04:29:21 pm »
EVs are the future and both vehicles themselves and the availability of public charging points are improving all the time. In terms of range it does depend on the car, but I can drive from Bristol to Yorkshire at motorway speeds without stopping to charge.

Online paul

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2020, 04:59:55 pm »
There are still a lot of problems remaining before EVs become widespread.
Leaving aside considerations on the extra electricity generation requirement for all those charging points, there are many locations where there are difficulties with having charging points at all.
The village I live in only has a certain proportion of houses actually located at the side of a road, with the only access to them being via narrow pathways, so cars have to be parked some distance away on other roads.
The main street for example has terraces of various sized houses  fronting straight on to the pavement with no front gardens or other frontage. The chances of guaranteeing being able to park right outside or even near a certain house are slim. And for the "put the charging points in lamposts idea", there are none. All street lights are affixed directly to houses.
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2020, 05:19:38 pm »
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/id/id-family/id-buzz

Back to the future.

Hm - hardly a Land Rover is it? I mean, tiny wheels, as far apart as possible (giving what looks like an appalling ramp break over angle). My quest is to try and find an EV (or hybrid) which is small and capable in harsh winter conditions and off the tarmac when necessary (both of which feature often around here in the Dales).

However, what really worries me about that suggested feature is the following words: " Soon the driver will become the passenger ". Once some robot in the sky somewhere decides where we're going, at what speeds and via which route - and which can then be hacked & controlled by some aggressive foreign power, then "1984! really has happened. But that's a totally different subject from electric vehicles' pros and cons, so I'll not go on about it here.

Offline JeremyG

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2020, 07:04:08 pm »
Looking forward to getting my tri-motor Cybertruck, that will be good for caving ☺️

Offline zzzzzzed

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2020, 07:40:36 pm »

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2020, 07:42:18 pm »
I think I alluded to this earlier. Thanks for the link.
The distance between stupidity and genius is measured only by success.

Offline Von Trippenhof

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2020, 09:05:23 am »
The human rights issues around cobalt sourcing are horrendous, however unlikely to be for long. CATL and Svolt (two of the big Chinese battery makers) have both announced their new generation of cells that are entering production now are cobalt free. And they are managing to be cheaper and higher capacity to boot. Tesla is making a fuss about it, but apparently they are supplying to a large European oem too.

To remain a little cynical, and I’m extrapolating a bit from the related semiconductor industry I work in, but I suspect this isn’t driven by the human rights as on the PR releases. Unlike petrochemicals where you have to dig them up where you find them, with sufficient investment, research and incentive alternative chemistry can be found. China has various five year plans to end dependence on other countries for tech. Not needing to bring cobalt over from Africa would fit with that. And China’s rep for human rights isn’t exactly storming.

To continue the human rights-batteries story... To up supply to European OEMs, Svolt are planning to build a factory in the EU, to allow them to take advantage of the better EU tariffs for made in Europe goods. The factories will need to meet western expectations for workers rights.

Before I come across as too evangelical, I think that in all of this, the unsustainable part is that everyone has a private magic metal box that can transport you wherever you want at high speed. However you slice it, that has a cost, either on the wallet of the user today, the environment tomorrow or the life of some poor sod digging up stuff. It’s all about balance and as I think someone said higher up, just swapping pistons for batteries is the least imaginative way of achieving that.

Thing is, I really like swanning off for weekends away.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2020, 09:21:14 am »
Some interesting words there VT - and food for thought.

In my case, I'm increasingly trying to make use of public transport where possible, minimising the use of the car. In this way I now seem to drive less than 6,000 miles a year where once I'd do 20,000. But the car does need to be there because you can't get off Leck Fell at midnight after a long day out by bus or a train. Any caving project needing a large amount of gear (cave diving springs to mind) is impossible in most cases without personal transport of some sort.

This conversation reminds me of the times when I'd think nothing of riding a 100 cc motorbike, on L plates, from Sheffield to the Dales and back, whilst wearing a pair of side mounted cylinders and a massive rucsack. I bet the police would take a dim view of that nowadays.  :-\

Offline Fjell

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2020, 09:31:38 am »
What is VW’s cunning battery plan? Because they are investing a shed load to produce 1.5 million EV cars a year by 2025, which is about 10% of European total demand for cars on it’s own. This seems to imply more like 30% EV market share by then. Germany seems to have decided diesel won’t save the planet after all.


Offline Robert Scott

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2020, 06:33:38 pm »
Three years ago I visited Cuba, where electric motor bikes are fairly common. The problem is, they are virtually soundless, and they creep up on you (there tends to be not much traffic on Cuban streets and people often walk along the road and get a bike up their arse if they're not careful).
In Cuba, given the dilapidated state of "pavements", it is easier to walk in the road being slightly less dilapidated. And yes the electric "Vespas" are a bit startling. But it's a lovely country to visit - a bit run-down but hey-ho at least only the army have guns.

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2020, 06:55:05 pm »
I see electric cars as a stop-gap, the future is surely hydrogen fuel cells - witness the tide/wind/hydrogen experiment in the Orkneys. It surprises me that the car manufacturers haven't invested the development of this technology which would work equally for cars, 32-ton artics and buses. And dare I say railway locomotives where overhead lines would be prohibitive.

Offline MarkS

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2020, 10:04:07 pm »
Do hydrogen fuel cells not suffer from a storage issue, rather like electric cars suffer from the issue of battery technology?

Offline hyweldavies

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2020, 08:32:44 am »
They are quite nippy those electric bikes. Not sure you should be allowed to ride one with no licence or insurance though




 

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