Brexit

[ChrisJC]

Flipping heck. Lorry sandwich-gate in the Daily Mail! Dial turned up to 11, you'd think by the Comments on the website that they weren't happy that Brexit 'is done'. Don't think they'll be happy until Joan of Arc is resurrected and burnt again.

If that's the worst side effect of Brexit, then I consider it a resounding success.

Chris.

[pwhole]

It's not, it's just a brief comedic moment in a slow-moving economic, political and social disaster. That's better - I'm going for my walk.

[Stuart France]

I've just shipped my first parcels to Northern Ireland complete with A4 size CN23 customs declaration forms stuck on their outsides and copious copies of all the paperwork for the truck driver.

Since CN23 form is used worldwide you'd think there would be a version of it where you can type in the data on a blank form (type it on your PC) then save it for re-use and adaptation on a future occasion, but there isn't.  Royal Mail has the form but you're expected to use a quill pen to fill it in.  Indian Post Office - nope just like Royal Mail.  Guernsey Post Office has a CN23 that you can type into the boxes and print it, but cannot save it for future use.

There are some entreprenurial websites for online forms that create CN23 (amongst others) for you and let you save your data for future use but they are not free to use and they get to keep your data.

Anyway, I've developed my own saveable editable CN23 now, hey ho, and waiting now to see how long before my parcels arrive!

[Stuart France]

News update from the Brexit coalface...

The lorry turned up at our premises and our Northern Ireland parcels went onboard.  It was a very big and very expensive high-tech lorry full of expensive industrial stuff.

Driver, nice chap, but clueless.  We gave him a biscuit and explained to him what bits of paper are now needed to get across the Irish Sea or the Channel, sent him on his way, and wished him well.

We had an email from the Trader Support Service (aka HMRC) the other day saying that lorries are starting to be being turned back at the port unless they have a bit of paper which integrates all the CN23's etc for all the consigned goods into a single "lorry document" which has been filed online in advance.  The port in question in this case is Belfast which comes after the lorry has made the sea crossing, and then might soon be sent on its way back to Birkenhead.  Less than 12 hours notice was given of this lorry paperwork rule change...

[Pitlamp]

How do all these unnecessary journeys reconcile with the need for the planet to reduce its carbon dioxide emissions?

[Fjell]

The fun has barely begun.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/video-news/pm-says-hell-overturn-ni-protocol-if-business-continues-to-suffer-39964434.html

So what he says is he will invoke the last resort article, er, first.

It’s all toast anyway in 2024 because Stormont gets a vote on continuing it, and they do lots of things on principle rather than any discernible logic. Bit like the fishing, moderately long grass. Gives time for politicians to move on to greener pastures before fan and shit interact.

It’s always interesting driving round Antrim’s towns. All those flags and happy faces.

[pwhole]

This report was just on Channel 4 News, and it's pretty depressing - admittedly their speciality, but this time it's pretty much all fact:

https://www.channel4.com/news/johnson-says-he-could-suspend-agreement-with-eu-on-goods-shipped-to-northern-ireland

[Stuart France]

The paperwork aspect from a consigner viewpoint is not that bad when you have done it once.  You need to fill in that CN23 and create a waybill to match it exactly which is most easily done by dropping a textbox over the big word CN23 on the CN23 form and covering it up with the words Shipping Inventory and then reprint the result a few times.

Just in case, we gave our driver three copies of all commercial documents including invoice and delivery note as we imagined he would not have a photocopier on board his lorry.

My worry is the goods do not arrive, go missing, or we do not get paid.  I did think of stopping trade with Northern Ireland for a while until things cool down.  In the end we have decided to trade but only on Ex-Works terms where the NI customer arranges a collection from our GB doorstep where our responsibility will end, and customer pays us in advance.

The worry from the courier viewpoint is that the whole lorry will be turned back if just one of the consignments is not properly documented, and the software systems to create the master Lorry Document from all the individual CN23s and file it with HMRC either does not exist or is not understood.

One worry of many for the NI buyer is that they have to register the import with HMRC within a few months to pay the duty which is due - which is none since there is a free trade agreement but they still have to file a null return.  They can't unless they are a huge importer.  HMRC has a system called CHIEF for that, but you need to huge to be allowed to use it, and go on a training course.

Step in HMRC's free Trader Support Service which has a .co.uk address not .gov.uk such was the rush.  They will file using CHIEF on your behalf, but the kinds of questions they are asking are not in the gift of NI buyers to answer - for example which ferry ports were used on what dates by what haulier and who operated the ferry etc - so the backdated customs declaration cannot be made easily.

I rang TSS the other day for some clarification and a kindly person with an Irish accent answered very promptly, so reassuringly close to the action with skin in the game, but it soon became clear they were reading a call-centre script and sadly as much in the dark as we were.

Imagine all this being repeated on Hadrian's Wall.

[Fjell]

The foundation of NI tourism. It’s chastening the things you didn’t have a clue about.

I’ll spare you the picture of grown men and women with cloaks and swords trooping down to the harbour.

[aardgoose]

One reasons TSS has a co.uk domain.  It's not a government body, but is funded by HMRC.  It is actually run by  the "Institute of Export & International Trade" which is a consortium including some of those proposing "alternative arrangements" as a solution to the NI/Ireland border that required non-existent technology.

[Pitlamp]

Imagine all this being repeated on Hadrian's Wall.

It shouldn't come to that; remember, we were promised that the Scottish independence referendum was a once in a generation event, at most.

I don't think we should have another one inflicted on us so soon.

[ChrisJC]

Oh I do. I would love one, and the SNP to win it. The deal is simple - financial freedom (including no more Barnett Formula handouts), and a border. No animosity or punishments. Just true independence. If that's what the majority want - great - go for it.

Chris.

[pwhole]

The irony being, of course, that Scotland loves unions when it suits them. Like the bigger one they're trying to rejoin, whilst trying to simultaneously leave the smaller, arguably more useful one they're currently in. Don't get me wrong, I like unions too. They help prevent petty nationalism for one thing. It's funny how the loudest calls for 'independence' are always from the ones who pretty much have it already. The world is changing, and nation-states are becoming more and more irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The inevitable long-term result is closer union for all nations in everything, and patriotism will hopefully become an embarrassing anachronism. I do not want to live in Vulgaria.

The differences between people compared to their similarities are microscopic, mostly just a suntan, eye-shape and hair texture, and most trouble in the world is currently caused by a generation of old, selfish and largely wealthy pinkish people who realise their time is up but don't have the brains or the grace to leave the stage. Corruption is endemic as they try to hang on to their ill-gotten gains and create diversion amongst the more deserving to avoid retribution. Covid and Brexit may actually accelerate this process, ironically, despite the short-term misery. Both will eliminate the old, the sick and the conservative-minded more effectively than any social policy could. The demographics of the rich west are changing, and we are getting older and unhealthier and the developing countries are getting younger and are fitter by default. They will, eventually, begin to dominate, by sheer force of youth, and there won't be much an inward-looking nation of unhealthy pensioners will be able to do about it, no matter how much dosh they've got embedded in the house.

[Fjell]

The more countries you visit, the more obvious it becomes that western Europe is in general the best place to live on the planet. That isn’t going to stop being true, it’s just geography.

And number 1 is probably France, followed by the UK, in terms of gifts.

[PeteHall]

The differences between people compared to their similarities are microscopic,

Pretty much agree.

mostly just a suntan, eye-shape and hair texture

Completely disagree. Every 'nation' (legally or morally speaking) has thousands of years of history and culture. It's ingrained into the way we think and view the world. This is real diversity, not skin colour or your preference on who you sleep with. To deny that heritage and culture are important is utterly ridiculous.

most trouble in the world is currently caused by a generation of old, selfish and largely wealthy pinkish people

I don't think skin colour has anything to do with it. Wealthy/ powerful people in all cultures have been able to twist the system in their favour, throughout history. The rich get richer and always have done. This resets itself once in a while when there is an uprising or revolution, but invariably this leads to more suffering in the short to medium term.

The demographics of the rich west are changing, and we are getting older and unhealthier and the developing countries are getting younger and are fitter by default. They will, eventually, begin to dominate, by sheer force of youth, and there won't be much an inward-looking nation of unhealthy pensioners will be able to do about it, no matter how much dosh they've got embedded in the house.

Sure, we have more older and unhealthier folk than in Africa for example, but that is in no small part because we have the healthcare to keep unhealthy people alive for longer. But we also have young folk, with the time and resources to learn, develop and stay healthy. Furthermore, the stability and lifestyle offered by a wealthy nation attracts immigrants from less wealthy countries and these are typically the younger, stronger and more driven ones, who are motivated enough to get up and leave to find a better life. The west acts as a brain drain on poorer nations and I therefore see your scenario as incredibly far fetched (certainly within the next few generations).

[Badlad]

Why is it that the UK (52% anyway) was so keen to leave the European Union but seem to take the opposite view to maintain the union with Scotland, Wales and N Ireland?  Can't much of the same arguments be presented about both sides.

[Pitlamp]

Yes, probably - and the arguments are just as poor.

What this country needs is a period of political stability, so we can get back on our feet.

I honestly don't think it'd be in the Scots' interests to bail out anyway.

[Fjell]

Why is it that the UK (52% anyway) was so keen to leave the European Union but seem to take the opposite view to maintain the union with Scotland, Wales and N Ireland?  Can't much of the same arguments be presented about both sides.

Yes. Don’t worry, I have had that with lots of friends in Scotland. They think it’s different and that the SNP isn’t a bunch of rabid nationalists. I beg to differ.

I went to school and uni in Scotland, and things starting going a bit weird in about 1990.

I now have friends descended wholly from German Jews who fled Nazi oppression being fervent SNP supporters. And there’s me with my grandmother Ross, from Ross.

This is my generation by age almost exactly:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi4yvqrzZvuAhV7aRUIHcP7A3QQtwIwAHoECAMQAg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D29-LRuuqFT0&usg=AOvVaw1JGo8BZ4QoztKjTGMEE79F

It’s engendered a victim culture completely divorced from reality. A more realistic view of what the issues are is this:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwixwJX7zpvuAhV5ThUIHUBmA0kQwqsBMAh6BAgMEAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNcQIvmR21VU&usg=AOvVaw3_O3Vungv6nSPi2e6EFfey

The Scottish class system in full flow.

[RobinGriffiths]

I honestly don't think it'd be in the Scots' interests to bail out anyway.

That's very likely true, but you could make that agrument about Brexiters. Both dogmatically have a single goal where everything else is collateral in achieving that goal.

Meanwhile - not looking good on the fish front, although that may improve. Defra: "The government is in close contact with the industry to understand and address any issues they are experiencing."  - maybe they should have done that before Brexit.

[Fulk]

Completely disagree. Every 'nation' (legally or morally speaking) has thousands of years of history and culture. It's ingrained into the way we think and view the world.

I doubt whether that’s true; our history and culture are drummed into us – it’s nurture, not nature. Consider

[ChrisJC]

I doubt whether that’s true; our history and culture are drummed into us – it’s nurture, not nature. Consider

That is true - we are born equal, then taught to hate thy neighbour, be it on the lines of nation, skin colour, language, perceived historical wrongs, accent, football team, cricket, whatever. If you eliminate one reason, another will pop up.

As a species, we have a need to belong. It is in us all. Our notion of what we belong to varies, and changes over time. But it is there, whether you are white, black, Christian, from Yorkshire, etc. It's our tribal instinct, and it has served us well. Suddenly we find ourselves in a time where it is much less relevant. But the instinct is as strong as ever. It's our identity.

In a stable society, our identity should align with our administrative system and geopolitical boundaries. Not doing so causes friction, you can see it globally.

And that is my reason for wanting to get out of the EU. It will fail in due course on those lines.  You cannot unite the tribes of Europe. It will never happen. The harder you try, the more people will rebel. We are the first out, but we won't be the last. And when it properly goes bang, I want to be on the outside. There will be short, and maybe even medium term hardship, but nothing like when the whole EU political pipedream implodes.

You can bribe people temporarily to overlook their identity, which is how the EU has expanded. But as soon as hard times hit, and the money dries up, there will be an almighty punchup.

Simply down to failing to understand the instinctive tribalism of human beings.

Pity really - it could work well if designed to accommodate the citizens.

Chris.

[Fishes]

Why is it that the UK (52% anyway) was so keen to leave the European Union but seem to take the opposite view to maintain the union with Scotland, Wales and N Ireland?  Can't much of the same arguments be presented about both sides.

Probably because a large part of them bought into a remarkably well organised campaign of propaganda and misinformation organised by the likes om Cummings, Farage, Cambridge Analytica and foreign actors. This was placed over a long history of lazy politicians blaming the EU for their own failings. I despise what they did but their campaign was brilliant by comparison to the disorganised and half hearted remain campaign.

This was very similar to what happened with the recent rise of the idiot Trump in America and that of right wing governments in Poland and Hungary.

[aardgoose]

Simply down to failing to understand the instinctive tribalism of human beings.

You imply all British/English are part of a single tribe by geography.  Id rather associate with people with shared values, sadly those values don't seem not to be shared with a good proportion of the UK, demonstrated by the support of the fraudulently gained brexit by the selfish, jingoistic, racist, ignorant or thick.

Just because something is 'instinctive' doesn't mean it is good or should be valued. Tribalism is one step away from the white supremacists of the US, with their appropriation of norse and germanic myths and runes.  People claiming anlgo saxon racial purity and worse.

It is worth noting that the support for brexit in the EU is largely from parties that can accurately be described as 'fascist adjacent', and in the US by the current president who is now widely acknowledged to be fascist.

[PeteHall]

Completely disagree. Every 'nation' (legally or morally speaking) has thousands of years of history and culture. It's ingrained into the way we think and view the world.

I doubt whether that’s true; our history and culture are drummed into us – it’s nurture, not nature. Consider

That is indeed true, but our different heritage and cultures have huge value. Different people seeing things in different ways allows us to solve problems different ways, learn from others and improve ourselves and our world.

I cannot imagine a worse world than a monoculture where everyone thinks and behaves the same.

Trying to mould everyone towards this monoculture (as those on the left of the political spectrum seem to be trying), alienates the majority who value their heritage. It breeds division and polarisation, as we are seeing all over the western world.

[droid]

We are seeing division and polarisation because of right wing populists like Trump, Johnson and Farage, not because of the left.

These populists demonise minorities and anyone that doesn't think like them as part of a political strategy and people who are hard of thinking fall for it.