I nominate the OP to replace the tape with the solution they prefer and apply to BCA for the funding.
Quote from: Stuart France on August 18, 2021, 09:47:49 pmThere's a bit of a misunderstanding in the above.The MLCMAC until very recently was[...]... I don't believe the MLCMAC is an access controlling body (in the 'registered with the BCA' sense) - again I could be wrong. Which leaves the question of what they are, assuming they still exist?
There's a bit of a misunderstanding in the above.The MLCMAC until very recently was[...]
I thought I'd covered all that. MLCMAC was a government committee, most recently controlled and chaired by NRW. There was clearly a goodbye meeting with NRW in NRW's offices in Abergavenny but there has been no paperwork or other agreement emerging over the management of the Llangattock caves. NRW has a lease from the Beaufort Estate on the Craig y Cilau NNR which includes Aggy and Eglwys Faen but not Daren Cilau or Craig a Ffynnon which are also on Beaufort land. The NNR lease makes NRW responsible for managing cave access within it and they've abrogated their responsibility by informally winding up MLCMAC and not leaving anything in its place other than the suggestion that the cavers previously involved with the committee should run it themselves. Basically NRW wants to keep control at least in theory (the lease) but not have any responsibility or involvement at one and the same time (having done away with the Old MLCMAC but not put that in writing nor really figured out what the future should look like before NRW left the room).The New MLCMAC (i.e. the usual cavers minus NRW personnel) could approach the estate to set up a new written access agreement running in parallel to the one that NRW is no longer operating but has not revoked.However, in meetings I had with the estate longer ago concerning the wider area and issues, it emerged that its position is that cave access and appropriate conduct when caving is a matter for cavers to organise for themselves. By that the estate might possibly mean that you can do what you like so long as you can justify it to yourselves as responsible behaviour and don't involve the estate in micro-management of activities at one extreme or general purpose written agreements at the other.So informality is pretty much what's happened and we'll just have to see how this works out. You can get a key for Aggy or OCAF or the Ogof Cnwc entrance to Daren Cilau from Malcolm Reid or from Adrian Fawcett or get it from Whitewalls by prior arrangement (see http://chelseaspelaeo.org/index_htm_files/contact.htm)
it was decided to place tape across the passage at the pool explaining this and that the best thing to see was the raft and the best place to view it from was where people were stood, reading the note. Withing two weeks the tape and note were found lying on the floor and the raft was gone, just a muddy pool left in its place!
That's an awful tale Huge.
so what were the rest of this group of cavers doing and how did they allow it to happen?
So... for the time being at least, the MLCMAC does not formally exist? Which means that as a cave within their area that no other formal BCA member body controls, CCC is the 'relevant' caving body?Half of me feels this is off topic, and the other half feels it is _on_ topic because the point of the BCA/regional councils is to represent caves and cavers, and if you can't work out who has the responsibility for that representation for a cave then the system isn't working...
I wasn't 'implying' anything, sorry Jenny. I mentioned that in response to an earlier post which said that extensive taping was somehow old fashioned and that education and signs were what's needed. We don't know if the damage mentioned in OFD and Draenen was deliberate (I've heard it said a couple of times that The Trident was damaged when someone tried to climb behind it, up to a high level passage and fell). What was definitely deliberate in both cases, was the crossing/ignoring of tapes and getting too close to the formations, with the consequences that we've seen, disastrous in the case of the calcite raft. There's nothing that can be done to prevent deliberate vandalism but thankfully it does seem to be extremely rare.We need to use all types of measures to minimise the change cavers make to caves and tape is a very important part of that. Taping is a change in itself but it's better than the general degradation that occurs without it. Reflectors may be appropriate in some places but my experience is that the worn path tends to be wider as people don't tend to stick closely to a direct route between each reflector. So tape, reflectors, signs, education and even access control all have their place.
...Our fixed aids, if you like, were two platforms added for safety reasons on unstable pitches.
Bad Behavior has blocked 743 access attempts in the last 7 days.