Poll

Is it right or wrong to enforce Covid-19 vaccinations on care home workers?

Right to enforce vaccination
Wrong to enforce vaccination
Undecided

Author Topic: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?  (Read 2519 times)

Offline Paul Marvin

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I imagine this to be very 50/50 as where is the line drawn ? No bun fights guys ! just interested in people's adult opinions .

When I was waiting for my first AZ vaccination I was given the patient leaflet to read through and it said " not to be given to expectant mothers " So if I was a young lady working in a care home and thinking of starting a family I dont think I would have it , then I would lose my job ? ALSO what about the community care workers are they included as they dont technically work in a care home ?

Paul
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2021, 07:22:32 pm »
Isn't Totalitarianism easy to achieve? All you need is MSM/goverment fearmongering and it's a done deal. Amazing.

Offline paul

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2021, 08:06:15 pm »
When I was waiting for my first AZ vaccination I was given the patient leaflet to read through and it said " not to be given to expectant mothers So if I was a young lady working in a care home and thinking of starting a family I dont think I would have it , then I would lose my job ? ALSO what about the community care workers are they included as they dont technically work in a care home ?"

There are alternative vaccines to the Astra Zenica / Oxford variety. Perhaps another vaccine would be suitable for expectant mothers? Plus this may be a contra-indication while pregnant rather than someone hoping to get pregnant some time in the future.
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2021, 08:52:33 pm »
If you're working with vulnerable people then yes, it's a no brainier. Same applies to anyone in contact with patients in a Hospital, or other special needs care.
If someone gave your granny covid despite being able to significantly reduce the risk, you would be absolutely bouncing. It's no difference to needing a clear enhanced CRB.

And if you think this is totalitarianism, then I have a bridge to sell you. I have a very dim view of the shower in power at the moment,  but this is basic, common sense.
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Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2021, 09:30:54 pm »
When I was waiting for my first AZ vaccination I was given the patient leaflet to read through and it said " not to be given to expectant mothers So if I was a young lady working in a care home and thinking of starting a family I dont think I would have it , then I would lose my job ? ALSO what about the community care workers are they included as they dont technically work in a care home ?"

There are alternative vaccines to the Astra Zenica / Oxford variety. Perhaps another vaccine would be suitable for expectant mothers? Plus this may be a contra-indication while pregnant rather than someone hoping to get pregnant some time in the future.

All the CV19 vaccines have  the same contra indications not just the AZ one  and they only have a temporary licences as well, I have had both mine I am not anti vacci just saying what my wife who was on the vaccine programme has told me .  :thumbsup:
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Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2021, 09:31:57 pm »
Doctors and nursers don't have to have the flu jab though, that's optional, despite the fact that flu is absolutely lethal in that age group. So if you're going to make the covid jab mandatory you should probably make the flu jab mandatory too.

I don't have enormously strong feelings either way, but I do find it disheartening how many people don't think critically about the relative risk of covid vs vaccine complications.

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2021, 09:36:08 pm »
Doctors and nursers don't have to have the flu jab though, that's optional, despite the fact that flu is absolutely lethal in that age group. So if you're going to make the covid jab mandatory you should probably make the flu jab mandatory too.

I don't have enormously strong feelings either way, but I do find it disheartening how many people don't think critically about the relative risk of covid vs vaccine complications.

Too true  :thumbsup: one can easily look both ways at things , Dr,s and Nurses etc do have to have certain vaccines BUT they have been tried and tested for over 50 years and above all have longevity trials on them . The hospital do offer staff the flu vaccine but its not compulsory.
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Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2021, 09:37:31 pm »
Enjoying reading your opinions chaps  :clap2:
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Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2021, 09:38:06 pm »
All the CV19 vaccines have  the same contra indications

I don't think that's true - the BNF has different contraindications for the different vaccines. It also says that where the risk associated with the virus outweighs the risk to the faetus then they should be used: https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/covid-19-vaccine.html

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2021, 09:43:09 pm »
All the CV19 vaccines have  the same contra indications

I don't think that's true - the BNF has different contraindications for the different vaccines. It also says that where the risk associated with the virus outweighs the risk to the faetus then they should be used: https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/covid-19-vaccine.html

I have already read the BNF  and as usual covers just about every contra indication known to man have you read the aspirin one ?
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Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2021, 10:11:16 pm »
Something else to consider - we need all the care home staff we can get right now, so anything that drives staff away should be avoided if possible!

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2021, 10:28:28 pm »
Something else to consider - we need all the care home staff we can get right now, so anything that drives staff away should be avoided if possible!

Never been a truer statement bro !
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Offline Mark Wright

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2021, 11:18:53 pm »
Something else to consider - we need all the care home staff we can get right now, so anything that drives staff away should be avoided if possible!

Never been a truer statement bro !

Would you both be considering this if your 86 year old mothers were currently in a care home?

Personally I wouldn't want anyone who hasn't been vaccinated anywhere near my mother regardless of whether the care home or community staff chose not to be vaccinated or were clinically unable to be vaccinated.

Mark

Offline 2xw

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2021, 11:23:50 pm »
If they don't like it there's loads of truck driver vacancies. Free market, is it not?

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2021, 07:34:38 am »
Would you both be considering this if your 86 year old mothers were currently in a care home?

Personally I wouldn't want anyone who hasn't been vaccinated anywhere near my mother regardless of whether the care home or community staff chose not to be vaccinated or were clinically unable to be vaccinated.

I don't mean to be callous, and I'm sorry that you're in that position. Of course I want to minimise the risk to care home residents, but I can see why people feel uncomfortable with the idea of mandatory vaccination, so am considering other factors effecting the decision.

If I were supreme overlord I think I would mandate vaccination, because (as I hinted at earlier) I think the risk/reward calculation is very strongly in their favour. But I can see how it's not a simple decision for the government right now. Particularly given the state of social care at the moment.

Offline Speleofish

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2021, 07:38:25 am »
Although mandatory vaccination sounds attractive, the ethics are difficult. It seems irrational to enforce vaccination for care home staff when it's not mandatory for the NHS, given there are just as many vulnerable patients in hospitals as care homes. However, both the BMA and RCN are opposed to mandatory vaccination, so it may never happen. Meanwhile, large numbers of carers will quit and an already understaffed, demoralised care sector will get worse.

If all care home residents were vaccinated (or had been offered vaccines) the real benefit of vaccinating all carers would be quite small, probably outweighed by the loss of so many staff.

However, the government went into this knowing it would be very unpopular with carers, so presumably the modelling data were very convincing - unless it's a cynical ploy to gain political points.

Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2021, 08:15:15 am »
If you're working with vulnerable people then yes, it's a no brainier. Same applies to anyone in contact with patients in a Hospital, or other special needs care.
If someone gave your granny covid despite being able to significantly reduce the risk, you would be absolutely bouncing. It's no difference to needing a clear enhanced CRB.

And if you think this is totalitarianism, then I have a bridge to sell you. I have a very dim view of the shower in power at the moment,  but this is basic, common sense.
Absolutely. It's only a matter of time until covid vaccination's compulsory for anyone, NHS or other, who tends to the elderly and vulnerable. There should be enough evidence for everyone that the elderly in care homes are hugely vulnerable, and that, however you cut it, having the vaccination is considerably less risky than being infected with covid.

Respecting people's individual freedoms is trumped by the imperative of not killing others to whom you owe a duty of care.
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Offline mikem

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2021, 08:22:21 am »
You can still catch the virus after vaccination, but the effects & longevity (of it) are generally reduced, so less likely to pass it on to those who are more likely to suffer.

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2021, 08:29:04 am »
Keep the votes coming guys and dont forget the original question  .
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Offline ttxela2

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2021, 09:52:50 am »
My daughter works in a care home and they have set a deadline of 4 weeks time for staff to be vaccinated or they are out. My daughter was vaccinated long ago so will be unaffected but a number of her colleagues are uncomfortable for whatever reason and so potentially will be gone.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of vaccination they already struggle to attract enough staff of adequate quality.

If my elderly relative was there I'm not sure whether I'd be worried more about Covid or the potential impact on already stretched staffing levels.

Interestingly the company I work for has already implemented a statutory vaccination policy in Canada and is now rolling it out to the US and considering it for other regions. We are primarily a manufacturing company, I think the primary motivation is to prevent outbreaks affecting the bottom line.....

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2021, 10:18:37 am »
It's only a matter of time until covid vaccination's compulsory for anyone, NHS or other, who tends to the elderly and vulnerable.

What about flu (or other) vaccines? Should these be mandatory too? Where do you draw the line? How long does the mandate last?

We seem to have got total tunnel vision here. All anyone seems to care about is Covid. We've all got to die of something, some time and for most of us, it won't be Covid.  :wall:

Offline Speleofish

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2021, 11:27:36 am »
I think that makes the point perfectly. Flu may not be the threat Covid is, but over the last decade has killed at least as many as Covid in the UK. Few people have seriously contemplated making 'flu vaccination mandatory in the NHS - partly because 'flu jabs are much less effective than covid jabs but also because there would be huge resistance from the staff.

Offline tony from suffolk

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Offline pwhole

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2021, 11:39:25 am »
My 88 year-old aunt died last night from lymphoma, but she didn't have Covid, and around 9000 people die a week in total - so the percentage dying from Covid is quite small in that regard:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/3september2021

However, the deaths are less important than the treatment people may require to keep them alive if they catch Covid, which is a far higher number, especially among the old or infirm, and the one we need to worry about, as they'll have to be transferred to hospitals.

Personally I don't understand why anyone wouldn't take any certified vaccine unless they had a very obvious health condition that disallowed it. It's a no-brainer - and it's free. If you go travelling in the far east you'll have to have at least three, and I've not heard many hippies screaming with outrage in the past that they can't go surfing in Bali, because they'd just have the shots and get on with it. Would they turn down the Covid one on principle?

I know some vaccines in the past have screwed up, and I'm not saying they're a magic bullet, because you have to be healthy too, and that's people's own responsibility. The ugly truth that no-one wants to discuss is the shocking state of the average adult person's health, which is by far the biggest cause of serious Covid if infected. I know everyone's read of super-fit people who've died from Covid, but they are very much a tiny minority. If I walk down my street to the town centre, five mins away, I will be immediately surrounded by fat people - and I mean the majority. I could shoot video to prove it if it didn't breach privacy laws.

Offline pwhole

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2021, 12:02:17 pm »
Italy have also announced today that all workers must be double-jabbed by October 15th:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58590187

 

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