UK Caving

NEWS, NOTICES & THE FORUM => Caving Chat => Topic started by: Bob Mehew on June 23, 2020, 01:16:48 pm

Title: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 23, 2020, 01:16:48 pm
I see that the PM has indicated hotels can reopen from 4 July.  Could I have a couple of volunteers to help me work our way through what has been said so as to produce some advice for clubs with huts on re-opening?  Please PM me.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Alex on June 23, 2020, 02:01:01 pm
It also says boarding houses too, which are more-akin to caving huts, so it sounds like caving huts opening would be within the spirit of the law. I think from the rules on pubs they are encouraged to take everyone's name and addresses in case anyone comes down with the virus would be a sensible precaution for huts, something for non-members and members in some clubs do already I believe, normally to chase payment.

So first step would be to have a sign in sheet, with name and address. I am on my lunch break at the moment (just finishing) so not sure I can volunteer for anything due to lack of time, it depends what you want and how much time is needed?

Biggist difficulty is maintaining social distancing when everyone is pissed (that goes for huts too ;) ).
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: David Rose on June 23, 2020, 02:20:46 pm
There may be an issue in that not every hut offers room service. Before the formal announcement today it was being suggested that hotels would only able to provide room service meals. I'm not sure if that is in the small print.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: andywebman on June 23, 2020, 04:17:17 pm
The guidance said Specifically said that youth hostel type accomadation with bunk rooms could not open for the time being
He did however specifically say that changing rooms in sporting club premises would remain closed at present. So another delay I suspect.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Cap'n Chris on June 23, 2020, 05:29:02 pm
Biggist difficulty is maintaining social distancing when everyone is pissed (that goes for huts too ;) ).

Speaks volumes. Reminds me of the quote from overseas observers who described an expeditionary group as a "drinking club with a caving problem". The irony being this was taken as a compliment. Little wonder youth caving, in association with the club scene, is largely dead in the water unless you define youth as over eighteen. 
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: PaulW on June 23, 2020, 07:20:46 pm
The guidance said Specifically said that youth hostel type accomadation with bunk rooms could not open for the time being
He did however specifically say that changing rooms in sporting club premises would remain closed at present. So another delay I suspect.

Have you got a link or anything to where this was said please, cheers

update, dont worry watching todays update now
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: andywebman on June 23, 2020, 07:47:10 pm
It was from Johnson speach in Parliament this morning.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: PaulW on June 23, 2020, 07:50:57 pm
this one ??

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-statement-to-the-house-on-covid-19-23-june-2020 (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-statement-to-the-house-on-covid-19-23-june-2020)

Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Jeanrr on June 23, 2020, 07:55:39 pm
I can't see in the speech where it says hostels can't open, just shared facilities have to be cleaned.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: PaulW on June 23, 2020, 07:59:48 pm
'people will be free to stay overnight in self-contained accommodation,

including hotels and bed & breakfasts,

as well as campsites as long as shared facilities are kept clean.'

I cant see any specific mention of hostels or boarding houses as mentioned above

Dont , get me wrong i'm not saying we can or can't, just after sources for these quotes
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 23, 2020, 08:25:24 pm
The guidance said Specifically said that youth hostel type accomadation with bunk rooms could not open for the time being
He did however specifically say that changing rooms in sporting club premises would remain closed at present. So another delay I suspect.
I can find the bit about changing rooms in the PM's statement to parliament.  But I cannot find any reference in the transcript to hostels.  It may be he said it when going off script; if so Hansard will have picked it up. 

I will admit that the chances of hostels being allowed to re-open soon do seem remote if you can't get changed together.

You mentioned guidance - that I cannot trace - can you provide a link?
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Alan Sp8 on June 23, 2020, 08:45:34 pm
ITV internet news says hostels are allowed to open in England from the 4th July - The Y H A web site says they are going open some hostels from the 17th July see YHA web site for details of the lengths YHA are going to to try and make it safe as possible.
So why not club huts with reduced numbers ?
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: PaulW on June 23, 2020, 08:47:27 pm
the news can say what they like.......


have you read the YHA guidance to what they are doing?? doesnt sound like a cave hut to me
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: darren on June 23, 2020, 08:53:53 pm
the news can say what they like.......


have you read the YHA guidance to what they are doing?? doesnt sound like a cave hut to me5

Legall speaking, the guidance can say what it likes, it is the underlying laws that we have to follow.
They are often quite different


Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: PaulW on June 23, 2020, 09:05:04 pm
maybe so, but also from the Primeministers statement;

'From now on we will ask people to follow guidance on social contact instead of legislation'
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: JohnMCooper on June 23, 2020, 09:07:40 pm
YHA say:

keeping communal spaces such as self-catering kitchens, dining areas, laundry facilities, locker rooms, drying rooms and lounges closed for the time being

I wish it was easier to find the true position for caving huts!
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: PaulW on June 23, 2020, 09:11:47 pm
I don't disagree, but unlikely to be quite that easy

best source in my mind so far is

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-statement-to-the-house-on-covid-19-23-june-2020 (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-statement-to-the-house-on-covid-19-23-june-2020)
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 23, 2020, 09:29:00 pm
OK so https://www.itv.com/news/2020-06-23/what-you-can-and-can-t-do-in-england-from-july-4-as-coronavirus-lockdown-measures-are-eased/ (https://www.itv.com/news/2020-06-23/what-you-can-and-can-t-do-in-england-from-july-4-as-coronavirus-lockdown-measures-are-eased/) mentions hostels even if the PM did not in his statement.  Hansard at https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2020-06-23/debates/7E464B41-46ED-4FA9-BAFD-28EC7B3DA230/Covid-19Update (https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2020-06-23/debates/7E464B41-46ED-4FA9-BAFD-28EC7B3DA230/Covid-19Update) does not mention hostels in any of the questions and answers which followed the statement.  I await the guidance material which hopefully will come in a day or two.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Badlad on June 23, 2020, 10:08:55 pm
Looks to me that some folk are trying to find reasons why caving huts cannot open, rather than finding reasons why they can.  From what I've read it looks like they can as long as various measures are taken to mitigate the spread of the virus.  No real difference in infection risk to many other things that are opening. Probably best to look to other outdoor organisations to see what they advise.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: pwhole on June 23, 2020, 10:09:18 pm
Quote
Boris Johnson did however say shared facilities must be kept very clean.

Hahahahahahah. I want that on a t-shirt ;)
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: mikem on June 23, 2020, 10:45:42 pm
Seems they may all be right - "work remains to be done on how hostels, where there are shared sleeping spaces, can reopen safely, and they will not be ready for 4 July."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/23/easing-of-lockdown-rules-in-england-whats-reopening-on-4-july
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: pwhole on June 23, 2020, 10:59:42 pm
If shared sleeping spaces define a hostel, then that is clearly a reason why they cannot re-open yet - people from different households can't sleep in the same room - unless they're in a relationship. Though that's hardly fair on anyone who might have to use the same sleeping space afterwards. If a hut is only used for kit pickup and drop-off and washing-off kit, then maybe it's possible, but it requires social distancing even then, and there's still the issue of cleaning all the shared surfaces afterwards. Kitchens, showers and toilets get even more difficult. We have enough problems trying to get folks to pitch in cleaning the place in normal times (and I am guilty of that too but usually plead bus reasons!), so getting a Covid-19-compliant finish on kitchen surfaces isn't going to be easy if there's several people coming and going in a day. And it's summer at the moment, which makes everything seem easy.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Badlad on June 24, 2020, 07:39:39 am
Some huts have opened their tackle stores weeks ago.  Over night use would need to be carefully run and be limited but still possible if there is a will within the club to do so.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 24, 2020, 08:00:15 am
Looks to me that some folk are trying to find reasons why caving huts cannot open, rather than finding reasons why they can. 
I don't think that is fair.  It has just taken some hours to figure out that a hostle can re-open if it is run like a hotel and not like a hostel.  The detail is not simple.  But given clubs are businesses, it sounds possible.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 24, 2020, 10:00:23 am
Just found https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation) on advice to hotels.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: mrc7cam on June 24, 2020, 01:08:55 pm
What seems problematic to me is that much of the guidance seems to assume that there will be employees carrying out the cleaning etc and overseeing of the regulations. Also Hostels such as the YHA are keeping their communal areas such as lounges & kitchens closed but how do you enforce that in a caving hut?

In Club Huts who is going to be responsible for overseeing that regulations are adhered too? Also what is the insurance position regarding liability on committee and members for any COVID19 related claims brought against individual clubs? Has the BCA insurer been consulted for example?
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: maxb727 on June 24, 2020, 01:15:57 pm
Just found https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation) on advice to hotels.
Section 2.1:

Current government guidance states that private rooms in all indoor accommodation with en suite showering facilities, or one designated shower facility per guest room, will be able to reopen. Shared toilet facilities can also be opened. If shared toilet and shower facilities are in the same room, guests are able to use the toilet but can only use the shower if it is assigned to one household or support bubble or run using a reservation and clean rota. Dormitory rooms will be closed (except where housing parties from the same household or support bubble), as will other indoor shared facilities (e.g. guest kitchens or TV rooms where social distancing cannot be observed).

places like the YSS might be okay with their many rooms but maybe huts with large dormitories will struggle for now.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 24, 2020, 01:32:23 pm
It will take a bit of imagination by Club Committees to work out how to apply the guidance.  My outline thought was one household per bunk room & designated toilet plus a small band of cooks working to commercial hygiene standards doing all the cooking and serving as in a restaurant.  People don't need to be employed they just need to accept the committee instructions.  Camping in the grounds may well be a simpler option.  But first and possibly most importantly, how will the neighbours react?

We have also just put up advice on inspection before re-opening, see https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=start (https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=start).

Insurance is no different from existing position and exposure to risks.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 24, 2020, 02:56:47 pm
One alternative to using an indoor kitchen as source for a restaurant service, is for people to cook outside.  As well as camping, people could use caravans and motor homes.

I also note 2.1.2 item 3 of the government's advice states:

Closing shared sleeping spaces (i.e. dormitory rooms) to any groups, except those travelling within the current government guidance on social mixing outside of household groups.

So there apears to be some wriggle room there.

Also item 5

Taking all possible steps to reduce the risk of transmission in shared shower, changing, and toilet facilities including ... running a reservation and clean process (whereby one household can exclusively book the shared facilities for a fixed time, and the facilities are cleaned thoroughly between reservations).

So a condition of use could be to do the cleaning after use.  (For cleaning see the annex in our advice.)

Clubs need to get a few people together to work out what they can and can't do within the framework of the layout of their hut.  A large committee will just grind itself into the ground doing the detail, though a full committee will need to OK what ever is produced as they will be first in line if someone complains.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: pwhole on June 24, 2020, 03:06:11 pm
Where a hut is located is critical to the calculations really - the TSG is in the middle of a busy honeypot village whereas Red Rose (for example) is literally in the middle of nowhere, so it's hard to compare them directly. But both sets of locals may or may not want activity yet if it means random visitors arriving from different parts of the country. The population of Castleton can't be ignored in our determinations as we operate alongside them. We have a few couples in the club who live together, so they could share a bunk and use a combined shower/toilet together or separately. But no-one else could, if they were to choose to do that, until it was all cleaned down again afterwards. As our showers are normally used after caving, they get muddy, so often get hosed-down first and then cleaned with disinfectant on the contact surfaces. But if the hosing-down blasts virus all over the changing area (as the water spray always does), then that's hardly the answer. So someone has to hand-clean everything, and who's going to do that as a volunteer? You might catch Covid-19 from cleaning down someone else's showering?

We're not panicking over the legal aspect per se, but as volunteers we do have to be aware that we're facilitating a hobby primarily, and that our normal risk-assessments are tilted more toward caving activities and keeping the physical structure of the building safe rather than the implications of delivering a potentially fatal infection to our members and visitors, outside the obvious ones from water pipes, etc. So there's a lot more thought needs to be put into how we implement any new procedures, and what impact they might have on 'normal' hostings, both for us and our neighbours. The local villagers are famously tolerant of late-night (sometimes noisy) revelry at The Chapel, possibly as many will have consumed similar beverages and 'understand'. And I suspect some like our eccentricities and believe we make the place more interesting. But I doubt they would understand that sort of activity right now, so I would imagine that any re-opening for us would have to be very slow and steady, and extremely well-behaved.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: maxb727 on June 24, 2020, 03:08:21 pm
What the locals think is important but also you could look at what other hotels etc in the hut area are doing to know what would it wouldn’t work in that area.

It doesn’t make sense to close club huts that have a workable solution if local hotels are open.

I hope that makes sense. I couldn’t quite get my words right.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 24, 2020, 03:58:06 pm
Where a hut is located is critical to the calculations really
I certainly agree with that and asking them is a good way of finding out / warning them of the change.  Which is why I think the ball is mostly in the club's court. Plus the layout of the hut is critical to deciding how to adapt.  It may well be that club's decide it is too much trouble or the risk is to great.  Let's hope not.

I see the Scottish First Minister has announced re-opening of holiday accommodation from 15 July.  So that leaves the Welsh government to make a decision tomorrow and announce it on Friday.  Let's hope their details will be similar.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: alastairgott on June 24, 2020, 07:56:32 pm
Pwhole and Badlad, I've a confession to make!

I've dismantled the common room and shoved all the miscellaneous stuff into both the members and non members rooms. I've been applying magnolia (the colour that acts best as a magnet for Jelly and haloween fake blood) liberally around the walls and ceiling.

but in the limited amount of time last weekend, I've only got so far... This week I was hoping to get more magnolia on the ceiling of one half of the room and then finish off that half of the room and push everything to the finished half of the room, but was unable to do this last night.

I'm helping my mum this weekend, so it's likely to be delayed further.

Until it's done, we (most likely) wont be opening up the hut to visitors, our tacklemaster is always on hand to make a decision as to whether members can borrow tackle.

Due to the nature of the works to paint the hut a number of our fire exit signs have been pulled from the wall. until these are back in place, the hut really cannot be opened to visitors, as opening the hut to people unfamiliar with the layout and location of fire exits is asking for far more headaches.

I for one, am keen to get the hut open as soon as possible, and will continue to work with our members to ensure this is possible ASAP!
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: oldboy on June 26, 2020, 11:44:44 am
Just found https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation) on advice to hotels.


The guidance is clear regarding dormitory accommodation and changing rooms
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation#section-2-1
Particular reference should be given to item 2.1.1.2
I.e.  2.1.2 Hostels
Fuller considerations for hostel operators are set out by UKHospitality, but particular consideration should be given to ensuring that hostels operate within the current government guidance on social mixing outside of household groups by:

Taking measures to make reception areas safer, with increased cleaning, keeping the activity time as short as possible and considering the addition of screens between guests and staff
Considering minimising lift usage from reception, and providing clear signage for new lift rules
Closing shared sleeping spaces (i.e. dormitory rooms) to any groups, except those travelling within the current government guidance on social mixing outside of household groups.
Closing other shared facilities:

– communal kitchens, where guests prepare their own food
– other communal areas (e.g. TV rooms) where social distancing can’t be managed within current government guidelines.



Sent from my iPad
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: alastairgott on June 26, 2020, 12:12:34 pm
I’m sure there are many ways to ensure that cavers retain social distancing. I’m sure in the fullness of time we may be able to offer some facilities to cavers (even if they aren’t sleeping, cooking or washing).
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 26, 2020, 12:15:03 pm
Closing other shared facilities:

– communal kitchens, where guests prepare their own food
I part repeat
One alternative to using an indoor kitchen as source for a restaurant service, is for people to cook outside. 

You need to think innovatively if you really want to re-open your hut albeit with limitations.  I am aware that one club has already thought their way through the challenges and plans to re-open on 4 July.

Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse.  :(
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: mikem on June 26, 2020, 12:17:31 pm
You can have time slots, or only one person / party agrees to do the catering.

Rules are different for private member's club, versus rental out to other groups (although not from a covid19 viewpoint).

Problem is that club huts seem to come in two designs - very few bedrooms, or lots of those, but not sufficient communal space for current requirements!
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Pete K on June 26, 2020, 04:32:28 pm
Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse.  :(
Prioritising safety over convenience is how I would view it. I'd hate to see my club shut down or decimated because an outbreak hit us. A friend of mine died the night before last of corona. He was a caver and member of my club and rescue team. It's still out there and just as lethal. We're fools to rush into something just because we can, when we really need to first consider if we should. Each to their own on choosing to cave again, but those who operate communal facilities must take the highest level of precautionary approach to this virus.
Keep up the good work Bob.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: JoshW on June 26, 2020, 04:38:55 pm
Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse.  :(
Prioritising safety over convenience is how I would view it. I'd hate to see my club shut down or decimated because an outbreak hit us. A friend of mine died the night before last of corona. He was a caver and member of my club and rescue team. It's still out there and just as lethal. We're fools to rush into something just because we can, when we really need to first consider if we should. Each to their own on choosing to cave again, but those who operate communal facilities must take the highest level of precautionary approach to this virus.
Keep up the good work Bob.

100% this. this outbreak isn't nearly over yet, and safety of everyone must take priority!
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 26, 2020, 05:38:40 pm
Off topic I know but
safety of everyone must take priority!
The counter to 'safety must take priority' is I hope you have ceased driving as you are a threat to others in a car.  But the reality is the threat level you present by driving is accepted by all and sundry.  But we have yet to get a coherent acceptance (or rejection) of the threat from the Corona 19 virus.

The probability of death from the virus if you are under 65 is fairly low, to which one has to add the probability of catching it.  I won't bother with numbers but I will claim it is small enough to permit a divided opinion on whether it is an acceptable risk or not.  It obviously is not overly large (like Ebola) or trivially small (like the common cold).  I very much doubt if the virus would significantly impact on a club, assuming the club reasonably represents the population at large.  So I accept that it is not unreasonable for a club to look to re-opening their hut albeit in a manner quite different from normal.  I would also suggest that given the total caving population is around 6000, the chance of overwhelming the NHS is not significant.  And by judicious choice of cave, the risk of needing a rescue minimal.   

So to be positive, one could get a group of mates to drive to a hut in separate cars, chat outdoors when they meet up, sleep in their cars or tents, cook breakfast outside or get a couple of them to cook for every one and another couple to clean the kitchen afterwards plus each individual clean every contact surface in the loo after they use it and every other contact point within the hut they touch.  That will go along way towards minimising the risk of transferring the virus.  I have not tested that outline against the government's criteria but I think it would go a long way to meeting the demands.

What I will reiterate is the need to be confident that a club will not upset its neighbours by re-opening.  That will require care and tact and should be the first consideration. 
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: alastairgott on June 26, 2020, 05:54:58 pm
If other clubs wish to debate this, then they can. On behalf of my club the TSG I am opting out of this debate and would urge other members to do the same. No single member of our club makes decisions, we are a collective, and will make our decision based on members past and present.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: mikem on June 26, 2020, 06:08:14 pm
I doubt many will discuss specifics on a public forum, unless they feel they are not being listened to. Most clubs will be talking about it in their own media, so it is useful to see what other clubs are feeling...
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Jenny P on June 26, 2020, 06:31:47 pm
It does seem that many clubs are using the time to check their huts and also do some essential maintenance and improvements.  Depending on where the club is situated it may be possible to do this without worrying neighbours.  It's also possible to carry out work where only one person is on site at a time and where you have already set out cleaning routines to be carried out by those working before they leave the site.

Having a club hut, which is technically classed as a 'hostel', right in the middle of a village does have problems which other huts way out in the middle of nowhere don't have to worry about. 

However, as Pete's post from earlier today show, we'd do well not to be complacent and assume it can't happen to us 'cos we're rufty tufty cavers.

Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse.  :(
Prioritising safety over convenience is how I would view it. I'd hate to see my club shut down or decimated because an outbreak hit us. A friend of mine died the night before last of corona. He was a caver and member of my club and rescue team. It's still out there and just as lethal. We're fools to rush into something just because we can, when we really need to first consider if we should. Each to their own on choosing to cave again, but those who operate communal facilities must take the highest level of precautionary approach to this virus.
Keep up the good work Bob.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: menacer on June 28, 2020, 07:22:40 am
Personally I think the whole thing is ridiculous and clubs owe it to their members to open up or refund the membership fees for services not provided

Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?
If you don't want to risk your life doing any of the above, don't do it.
Fine, you stay away if thats what you want, but to ask all other club members at the expense of their daily mental health suffering is cruel and narrow minded.

You cannot make a public space safe from Covid.
Its here to stay.
It'll still be here in 5 years time.

You want to wait for a vaccine, fine, you stay away and stay at home waiting
.
In the meantime other people would like to continue living their lives without everyone treating them like their some sort of typhoid Mary.

Open clubs to members at their own risk
 
We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!
Its not realistic in a hostel style setting and will never be an avoidable hazard
 Ever

Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will. 

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.

I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down.
Shit happens.

You all know this.

I will offer a solution also rather than just rant.
I belong to 2 caving clubs, as such I can take up the position from any committee person who doesn't want the risk of clubs opening on their shoulders.
I invite anyone similarly minded to offer the same.


See sense people please.  :down:
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: andrewmc on June 28, 2020, 08:12:59 am
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!

People are waiting for government legislation that lets them do it *legally* - you can't expect people to open club huts in a way that is illegal. That is different from following or not following guidelines.

Quote
Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will. 

Actually, some of them do...
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Badlad on June 28, 2020, 08:29:07 am
We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday.  A run around those clubs reps who had huts suggested  that some had opened their tackle stores and others planned to do so soon, mostly with a booking system.  Some planned a phased reopening of accommodation starting with a limited use of either household or social bubbles, booking, camping outside etc, but at least something.

Of the clubs without huts, all who spoke were doing some caving, if limited.  Digging, small group or family trips etc. mostly adhering to the CNCC advice of being cautious, caving within capabilities and being considerate to others.

The vast majority of caves in our area are open, with landowner support and approval.  A few are not so check CNCC website or ask local cavers first.  Our chairman reports, and I concur, that we have had no complaints from landowners or local communities and some gratifying expressions of support where we have been invited to help.  The honey pot visitor sites across the Dales have been inundated at times with some poor behaviour reported and mountains of trash left behind.  However, as far as we can tell it has not affected the high regard with which cavers are now held by many landowners who have benefited from our assistance over the years. 

If you are caving in the Dales please help us maintain and improve on this positive opinion.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: mikem on June 28, 2020, 09:30:17 am
& most Mendip huts are in a similar position (clubhouses are also supposed to stay shut, never mind hostels). There's nothing to stop locals caving, apart from the lack of information flow.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Pete K on June 28, 2020, 09:40:59 am
...Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?...
I would imagine that it is very hard to kill dozens of people behind the wheel or in a cave. It is not just about how an individual accepts the risk to themselves, but how that person feels about potentially transmitting it to others.

Open clubs to members at their own risk
Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 springs to mind. I'm pretty sure the club would remain liable and legally responsible for it's duty of care regardless what you get people to sign. Waivers are barely worth the paper they are written on.

We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!
As has been pointed out already, we can wait to establish what we legally need to do and then work out if that can be done in our own club settings.

Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will.
Which might be something clubs need to do in future if they cannot rely on members to do it.

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.
"I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up"
I'm pretty frustrated by this whole virus thing. I have had no income since it started and have spent much of the last few months unable to take part in the hobby I love like everyone else. What would be really frustrating is to have gone through all that to see it happen again. I'd accept a bit more personal disruption for some saved lives and keeping us out of a second lockdown.

I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down. Shit happens.
Again, as tragic as those deaths are, it is very hard for a dead driver / diver / caver to then cause the illness and death of other people on the scale that is possible with the virus.

----

We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday....
We held our second DCA meeting since lockdown began recently and I can confirm that the state of play in the Peak is very much the same as the Dales. Some caves remain shut because the owner wishes it so. Digging and limited sport caving is going on. DCA have projects teams out capping shafts again. Locals are being liaised with and on the whole, everyone is being very sensible.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: PeteHall on June 28, 2020, 10:03:26 am
As I have said elsewhere, if this virus is here to stay, we're just going to have to get used to it.

Commercial cleaners, sanitising everything, every day in club huts is not a long term solution.

Members sanitising everything they touch after touching it is not a long term solution.

As menacer says, we're all grown up's and need to make our own decisions about what risks we are or aren't prepared to take.

This whole situation has seen the most unprecedented erosion of civil liberty, which I find very worrying. Yet anyone who stands up to it is accused of an "I'm alright Jack" attitude,  or worse. I'm amazed that there haven't been riots, oh wait...

It's no wonder people are keeping their heads down and carrying on regardless. Those opposed will be at home and none the wiser. Anyone you meet out is clearly of the same mindset.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 28, 2020, 10:59:17 am
Members sanitising everything they touch after touching it is not a long term solution.
It is worth bearing in mind on the specific topic of sanitisers and disinefectants, that there are two types, anti-bacterial and anti-viral.  Being one does not mean it will deal with the other.  The most recommended hand sanitiser is a 70% alcohol based hand rub as it deals with both viruses and bacteria.  Unfortunately it is costly.  Which is why you will find many hand sanitisers made available at places are only anti bacterial.  Hence of no value against the Covid 19 virus.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: menacer on June 28, 2020, 11:19:44 am
...Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?...
I would imagine that it is very hard to kill dozens of people behind the wheel or in a cave. It is not just about how an individual accepts the risk to themselves, but how that person feels about potentially transmitting it to others.
 if a person travels out stays in an area whilst showing symptoms, that person is likely to do so anyway, any where, whether caving club, supermarket, petrol station
 

If a person shows no symptoms, the same applies anywhere every day of your life, for ever.
How would they knows they a) had it or b) was the cause of someone else getting it
Open clubs to members at their own risk
Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 springs to mind. I'm pretty sure the club would remain liable and legally responsible for it's duty of care regardless what you get people to sign. Waivers are barely worth the paper they are written on.
 How could you prove a person caught Covid and was severely disabled by it or did from it from 1 location.

We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!
As has been pointed out already, we can wait to establish what we legally need to do and then work out if that can be done in our own club settings.
 quite right, with more emphasis on can do not can't do.
If you're uncomfortable with a can do attitude, maybe step aside and allow others to fill the void
Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will.
Which might be something clubs need to do in future if they cannot rely on members to do it.
 maybe, between every used glass, cup and utensil and touched surface?

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.
"I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up"
I'm pretty frustrated by this whole virus thing. I have had no income since it started and have spent much of the last few months unable to take part in the hobby I love like everyone else. What would be really frustrating is to have gone through all that to see it happen again. I'd accept a bit more personal disruption for some saved lives and keeping us out of a second lockdown.
 so, for how long?
I'm guessing you have either savings or furlough money. What will change in 3 months time for you to go to work again and use a caving club.
What are you hoping will change in 6 months time and then a year?
I feel pretty confident that in 1 years time, you could find yourself caving along side someone who is asymptomatic of Covid, but has it, do you lock away everyone now who has a cold, just in case you pass that cold to you're grandma and she dies of pnumonia?   
I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down. Shit happens.
Again, as tragic as those deaths are, it is very hard for a dead driver / diver / caver to then cause the illness and death of other people on the scale that is possible with the virus.
 as far as I'm aware, the original, ground zero family that bought Covid back from Italy on a skiing trip hasn't hasn't been prosecuted, and rightly so to.....

----

We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday....
We held our second DCA meeting since lockdown began recently and I can confirm that the state of play in the Peak is very much the same as the Dales. Some caves remain shut because the owner wishes it so. Digging and limited sport caving is going on. DCA have projects teams out capping shafts again. Locals are being liaised with and on the whole, everyone is being very sensible.
yes, those of us who are sensible have continued to work and enjoy life throughout this, without causing Covid spikes or killing our fellow employees ( astonishing I know)
We do continue to be deeply saddened by the many people around who are losing their jobs, livelihoods, suffered mental health issues, isolation, anxiety, all of which caving clubs provide a daily part in preventing.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: owd git on June 28, 2020, 11:30:08 am
Wind your neck in, and why the red mist. eh?
you need to get out more! chill .  :kiss2:
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: PeteHall on June 28, 2020, 11:43:37 am
why the red mist. eh?
Red text is commonly used in the workplace to make notes on something someone else has prepared, be that an email or technical drawing. It makes it very easy to see what comment relates to what previous statement, rather than the alternative of a long rambling narrative.

At the end of the day, the lockdown is causing a lot of its own problems, many of which more serious to more people than coronavirus. This should not be underestimated.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: menacer on June 28, 2020, 12:04:54 pm
Wind your neck in, and why the red mist. eh?
you need to get out more! chill .  :kiss2:
Red mist?
Without an app on a mobile phone, its very hard to reply quotes in quotes.
So I opted to change the font colour.
If you'd prefer green I'm sure some mods could oblige. 

Why tell me to wind my neck in, are you one the anti free speech brigade that seem to dislike anything or anyone with a contrarion opinion, or are you a Chinese bot, out to suppress free speech  :ras: :tease:

As for getting out, I'm a key worker, worked throughout this, sometimes 7 days a week,  ( part of a countrywide organisation that's isn't dropping dead like flies and are carrying on regardless with a few "sticking plaster" modifications in the work place)

I've been caving, traveled through out this and stayed overnight outside my family unit shock.
Maybe I'm just blinded by the reality I'm living in, but we do have the lowest incidents in the whole country, I accept that, and I wonder why  ;)

Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Pete K on June 28, 2020, 12:47:01 pm
...Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?...
I would imagine that it is very hard to kill dozens of people behind the wheel or in a cave. It is not just about how an individual accepts the risk to themselves, but how that person feels about potentially transmitting it to others.
 if a person travels out stays in an area whilst showing symptoms, that person is likely to do so anyway, any where, whether caving club, supermarket, petrol station
True. It is the people who don't show symptoms that are more of a concern. Anyway, the point I was making was that your comparison between accepting risk when caving or driving when compared to catching or transmitting covid is flawed. For caving / driving you accept the risk to yourselves and maybe some of the small group who may be with you (or could be run over), for the virus you are accepting you risk not only the health of yourself but of countless others you might unwittingly spread it to. I'm not saying don't go out caving or to club huts etc..., I am simply pointing out your comparison is false.

If a person shows no symptoms, the same applies anywhere every day of your life, for ever.
How would they knows they a) had it or b) was the cause of someone else getting it
Open clubs to members at their own risk
Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 springs to mind. I'm pretty sure the club would remain liable and legally responsible for it's duty of care regardless what you get people to sign. Waivers are barely worth the paper they are written on.
 How could you prove a person caught Covid and was severely disabled by it or did from it from 1 location.
I doubt you could but I'm not concerned with whether I might personally be prosecuted, I'm more concerned about how I would live with myself if I thought I had been a factor in transmitting the virus to friends and collegues. Again, I'm not saying caving should not happen or to keep clubs shut, I'm addressing your point that risk cannot be ignored by clubs just because some of their members may choose to do so.
We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!
As has been pointed out already, we can wait to establish what we legally need to do and then work out if that can be done in our own club settings.
 quite right, with more emphasis on can do not can't do.
If you're uncomfortable with a can do attitude, maybe step aside and allow others to fill the void
I fail to see the point in your last comment other than to insinuate I am somehow responsible for closing caves or holding caving back. You should understand that some people are able to have reasoned debate about a topic and hold opinions without letting those opinions influence their work. All decisions which I am a party to have been made democratically and openly.
Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will.
Which might be something clubs need to do in future if they cannot rely on members to do it.
 maybe, between every used glass, cup and utensil and touched surface?
That is why reopening needs careful thought and preparation, not just a sod it and open anyway approach.

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.
"I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up"
I'm pretty frustrated by this whole virus thing. I have had no income since it started and have spent much of the last few months unable to take part in the hobby I love like everyone else. What would be really frustrating is to have gone through all that to see it happen again. I'd accept a bit more personal disruption for some saved lives and keeping us out of a second lockdown.
 so, for how long?
I'm guessing you have either savings or furlough money. What will change in 3 months time for you to go to work again and use a caving club.
What are you hoping will change in 6 months time and then a year?
I feel pretty confident that in 1 years time, you could find yourself caving along side someone who is asymptomatic of Covid, but has it, do you lock away everyone now who has a cold, just in case you pass that cold to you're grandma and she dies of pnumonia?   
Sorry, I think you misunderstand my point or I have worded it poorly.
I accept that my personal liberties and hobby may be curtailed for a little longer in order to further reduce the risk to other members of society.
I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down. Shit happens.
Again, as tragic as those deaths are, it is very hard for a dead driver / diver / caver to then cause the illness and death of other people on the scale that is possible with the virus.
 as far as I'm aware, the original, ground zero family that bought Covid back from Italy on a skiing trip hasn't hasn't been prosecuted, and rightly so to.....

I would never have suggested that they would or even should be culpable in a legal sense. I bet they feel pretty awful about it though.
All am I really reading in these responses are "I'm okay with it so to hell with everyone else" and "they can't prosecute you for it". I struggle with this line of thought as I'm more of the mindset that my actions do impact others and whatever the legal case is, do we not have a moral duty to take care of others as well as ourselves. Regardless of personal view, the law and the guidance is present and must be followed. Where it is not clear then surely it is up to us to ensure we are taking the more robust approach to the safety of club members and not the 'it'll be fine' approach that might (or might not) lead to disaster. I can't wait for clubs to reopen and for caving life to pick up again. I think there is no reason why most club will not be able to reopen in some way. I do think that any club who is considering this must make some very difficult choices and put in place some probably rather unpractical policies, but that is the way it has got to be for now.
----

We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday....
We held our second DCA meeting since lockdown began recently and I can confirm that the state of play in the Peak is very much the same as the Dales. Some caves remain shut because the owner wishes it so. Digging and limited sport caving is going on. DCA have projects teams out capping shafts again. Locals are being liaised with and on the whole, everyone is being very sensible.
yes, those of us who are sensible have continued to work and enjoy life throughout this, without causing Covid spikes or killing our fellow employees ( astonishing I know)
Some sensible people have no doubt died, some have not. Some who ignored advice will have died and others not. Just because the actions of a single person in this time have not (knowingly) resulted in consequences does not mean that all people taking that approach would have resulted in the same outcome.
We do continue to be deeply saddened by the many people around who are losing their jobs, livelihoods, suffered mental health issues, isolation, anxiety, all of which caving clubs provide a daily part in preventing.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Jenny P on June 28, 2020, 01:06:40 pm
As Pete says:
I can't wait for clubs to reopen and for caving life to pick up again. I think there is no reason why most club will not be able to reopen in some way. I do think that any club who is considering this must make some very difficult choices and put in place some probably rather unpractical policies, but that is the way it has got to be for now.

My own club is in this situation but the fact is that we cannot open our club hut as it is legally classed as a "hostel" and HMG requires these to remain closed at the moment - if we were to open now we would risk prosecution. 

The Club Committee is constantly reviewing the situation and are trying to think in advance how we might be able to manage the situation when we are permitted to re-open, even if it's in a limited way.  In the mean time, like other clubs, we are carrying out essential maintenance and upgrades which can be done by individuals working alone and we have invested in hand sanitiser and antiviral sprays for the use of those who are carrying out work at the hut.   

We are doing the best we can under very difficult circumstances and trying to act in a responsible manner.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: owd git on June 28, 2020, 01:10:56 pm
I see that the PM has indicated hotels can reopen from 4 July.  Could I have a couple of volunteers to help me work our way through what has been said so as to produce some advice for clubs with huts on re-opening?  Please PM me.

I note Bob Mehew didn't ask for a debate on our views.  :)
I am not a "bot"
I (in construction) am a key worker, not an impatient hero, nor advocate for the Durdle door lemming appreciation society. or whichever really brave type of self advocating club,like the bikers in our village 'Matlock bath' therefore at first hand i see daily what released frustration is like to deal with just trying to walk my dog.
Lastly; a club hut opening is hardly the only way to cave. is it? Another lastly; hut's still have costs, so refunds should possibly only be made to those in need  and unwaged. :ang:
my neck is now re-setting to former length.
P.S. I can walk to several caves , also (forbid) many open mines from home to enjoy at leisure, if i choose. Would I cave with anyone  I cannot trust to have no chance of commination?  answers on a postcard.
O.G.   
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: A_Northerner on June 28, 2020, 01:12:31 pm
This is sending my colourblindness into overdrive. I wonder if it will be a rainbow by the time the argument is over?
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Pete K on June 28, 2020, 01:25:51 pm
This is sending my colourblindness into overdrive. I wonder if it will be a rainbow by the time the argument is over?

 :lol: :lol: Apologies. I can record an audio version for you if you wish?
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Chocolate fireguard on June 28, 2020, 01:52:19 pm
I've been caving, traveled through out this and stayed overnight outside my family unit shock.
And now you expect your opinion to be treated seriously and with respect?
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: mikem on June 28, 2020, 02:19:08 pm
The other, previously mentioned, issue is that all huts are situated in small communities, even if they mostly aren't in the centre of the village, & their goodwill goes a long way towards the very existence of those clubs...
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: menacer on June 28, 2020, 02:31:29 pm
I've been caving, traveled through out this and stayed overnight outside my family unit shock.
And now you expect your opinion to be treated seriously and with respect?

If you're more inclined to rely on the' science of 'models' than real life occurrences, with real people in real large work places, then you wouldn't be interested in the positive stories and experiencesthat have come from this latest Corona virus. 
If you wish to concentrate on all the negatives and none of them positives on how it can, and has already been successfully managed in work place and leisure environments, then move on, there's nothing for you here and that's entirely up to you.
 
I can't ignore the successful positive outcome within the countrywide company I work for.
It worked.
We're all still alive.
The workplace didn't fall.
The relatives of the workers didn't drop like flies.
Those that were vulnerable'/elderly were furloughed. 

Its hard to see why a caving club can't operate similarly. 
I can't speak for others but one of my fellow sceptics ( not happy about healthy people being quarantined) also works for a large transport company were they literally share desks, hot bedding on offices of 200 people.
They still have zero cases.
Not one.
In my workplace, one hypochondriac with loads of' health issues" thinks he had it.   
No one else caught it.

Yet. .
Its only a matter of time.
Its not going away ever.
But it can be lived with just fine for the majority of people










Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 28, 2020, 03:18:55 pm
...but the fact is that we cannot open our club hut as it is legally classed as a "hostel" and HMG requires these to remain closed at the moment...
I must correct that statement.  The English government's advice is quite clear that hostels can open provides various conditions are meet, as Section 2.1.2 of their guidance states, see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation) .  I note for example that the YHA are re-opening from 17 July albeit in a phased manner, see https://www.yha.org.uk/covid-19 (https://www.yha.org.uk/covid-19) .  Indeed it was the news report of that fact which gave me hope that clubs could do so.

But it all depends how your club wishes to approach re-opening in adopting flexibility and applying restrictions etc.  I accept that the nature of some club huts offer little flexibility so may well end up being only able to let one person or household unit use the place, whilst others with flexibility could get in 5 or indeed more, given camping and motor homes could be used.  Though one would be careful to avoid the limitation of meeting more than 6 people by adroit care in where people come together even if it were the same location.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: mikem on June 28, 2020, 03:28:09 pm
Jenny is clearly stating the situation at the current time, not next week. However, another difficulty is determining what is legally binding & what is just guidance, some of which is morally justified & other stuff that is taken out of context.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Jenny P on June 28, 2020, 04:24:57 pm
...but the fact is that we cannot open our club hut as it is legally classed as a "hostel" and HMG requires these to remain closed at the moment...
I must correct that statement.  The English government's advice is quite clear that hostels can open provides various conditions are meet, as Section 2.1.2 of their guidance states, see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation) .  I note for example that the YHA are re-opening from 17 July albeit in a phased manner, see https://www.yha.org.uk/covid-19 (https://www.yha.org.uk/covid-19) .  Indeed it was the news report of that fact which gave me hope that clubs could do so.

But it all depends how your club wishes to approach re-opening in adopting flexibility and applying restrictions etc.  I accept that the nature of some club huts offer little flexibility so may well end up being only able to let one person or household unit use the place, whilst others with flexibility could get in 5 or indeed more, given camping and motor homes could be used.  Though one would be careful to avoid the limitation of meeting more than 6 people by adroit care in where people come together even if it were the same location.

The problem comes when you look at what is permitted in a "hostel".  For example, on 17th. July the YHA are opening only to those who have pre-booked and pre-paid at the very limited number of hostels where there are ensuite rooms and where all reception, cooking and common room facilities will remain closed.  In other words, the people staying there in ones, twos or small family groups, must have no contact with any other person or group.  (That's why holiday accommodation where one family group can stay in self-contained accommodation by themselves and with no-one else around will be permitted from, I think, July 4th.)

In a caving club hut where we don't have en suite facilities, it is very difficult to see how more than one small group can stay at any one time and we would then have to consider how it is possible to disinfect throughly anything they may have used or touched before anyone else can use it.  This might mean that all bedding (i.e. things like mattress covers) has to be taken away and washed before the next user comes in, despite the visitors having their own sleeping bags.  (Not sure what the regs. say on this.)  You would also have to rely on those staying to disinfect all other spaces they may have used: kitchen, washroom, shower, toilet, etc. when they leave and before anyone else can use the place. 

Camping is possible but, for example, the Camping & Caravanning Club are initially opening their club sites but only for those pre-booking and pre-paying and not opening any of the facilities: so no reception, shop, toilets, washrooms, showers, etc. although chemical disposal points will be provided.  That makes "camping" at a club hut (if it has the space to do so) very difficult if all shared facilities are effectively out of bounds.  C&CC are now suggesting that at some time later in July they may be able to have their toilets, washrooms and showers open but will have to take some out of use (e.g. bar off every other washbasin if there is a rank of them) to limit contact between users and they will also be cleaning the facilities at least 4 times a day.

YHA and Camping & Caravanning Club are large semi-commercial organisations with legal teams to go through the regs. with a fine tooth comb and the money to employ the necessary cleaners to comply with the requirements. 

Club huts are run by a bunch of volunteers so we have to do the best we can to think creatively how we might manage - but the complications are endless and, when you come down to it, it isn't necessary to stay in a club hut if you want to go caving.  It's immensely frustrating and disappointing and those members running the club will be worried that they may be held responsible if something goes wrong or they are found to have breached some regulation they weren't clear about.

The problem appears to be that anything which involves any shared facilities of any kind are covered by regulations involving endless layers of small print.  Add to this that these reglations are constantly being changed or updated so it's very easy to miss something and you have a recipe for confusion.  Appreciate that Bob is doing a magnificent job in following every twist and turn of this ever-changing circus and is doing his best to ensure that we are kept informed.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Robert Scott on June 28, 2020, 04:41:57 pm
Carmen - I feel that your presence at CSCC meetings would be an absolute blessing.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: menacer on June 28, 2020, 04:58:33 pm
Carmen - I feel that your presence at CSCC meetings would be an absolute blessing.
:lol: :clap2: Maybe  :lol:
I doubt they'd agree.  :clap2:
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Bob Mehew on June 28, 2020, 05:16:59 pm
Jenny

After delving into the detail I recognised some while ago that the real challenge is applying the various constraints to the design of the hut.  I previously posted an approach which could be modified to fit many clubs and their huts.  As another example, a club could re-open their hut simply by allowing individual camping of groups combined with JUST the use of the toilet which is cleaned by the user after each and every use with materials supplied by the club.  (If tents can get onto their property of course.)   

By the way, I understand many clubs with huts got a £10,000 hand out from their local authorities if they were eligible for small business rate relief, see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-youre-eligible-for-the-coronavirus-small-business-grant-fund (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-youre-eligible-for-the-coronavirus-small-business-grant-fund) .  So money should not be an issue.  (Has that been mentioned elsewhere?)  With that sort of money the club could even hire someone to advise them.

It is up to the club committee to sort things out and make some new rules to permit as much of a re-opening as they feel conformable with.  And if they don't feel comfortable with any re-opening, then fair enough.  No one responded to my initial request, so I have taken the line that it is not feasible to provide advice from the centre. 

What I would like to see is clubs coming forward with their take on how to re-open their hut.  What I fear is that most are too afraid to do anything.

PS - the YHA seemed quite happy to book me in at one of their hostels post 17th.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Jenny P on June 28, 2020, 05:53:04 pm
Bob,

Re. PS - the YHA seemed quite happy to book me in at one of their hostels post 17th.

I'm going on the report in the Guardian, which does seem to have researched this fairly thoroughly.  It seems that there are around 30 or so YHA Hostels which have single or small family rooms with en suite facilities.  Most are in cities, for example YHA Rotherhythe and YHA St. Pancras - both in London - but I think there may be ones in Bristol, Bath, Birmingham, etc. which may also have these facilities and I can think of one countryside one, in Northumberland, which has a couple of double rooms with washroom/shower next door and I'm told Hartington Hall in the Peak District also now has some en suite rooms.  However, the majority of the YHA hostels still have bunkrooms and shared toilet/washroom/shower facilities and it's my understanding that these won't be able to open yet.  In any case, it seems the shared facilities such as kitchens and communal areas are likely to remain closed for the moment.

I note that a number of hotel chains are advertising that they will soon be open for bookings but I'm not sure how they will be able to organise their restaurants and other shared facilities.  Probably there is something in the regulations which covers this but confess I haven't looked up hotels yet.

I suppose we could use some of the £10,000 local authority handout which clubs have received as "small businesses" to employ cleaning staff so that during the summer we could allow small family groups to book the club hut for their use with one family at a time using the hut.  At least that way we would not have to worry quite so much about whether the previous users had really cleaned as they should.

My own club is using some of the money to improve our facilities and doing the work while we aren't able to have visitors.  We are also buying new equipment (rather than relying on donations of second-hand fridges, furniture, etc.) so that when we are at last able to re-open properly our members will feel that we haven't wasted the time.

The other problem may be the design of the hut, given that they are very often re-purposed buildings which weren't originally meant to be multi-use hostels.  Hence passageways and staircases may be of limited size making any kind of distancing very difficult.  Even some of the more recently purpose-built club huts may still have the same constraint on movement.

Guess we're all doing the best we can and trying to think creatively.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Russell Myers on June 28, 2020, 06:39:58 pm
Jenny, your reference to "restaurants" prompted me to reply that from 4th July Restaurants, Pubs, Bars will be allowed to open but don't get too carried away at the thought of a "lock-in", there are a shed load of restrictions such as max number of 30 in the venue, social bubbles, seated service etc etc . I've been working on it all week to help some of my company's clients prepare to re-open. Slightly off piste from the original post but an encouraging sign and close to many cavers hearts. :beer2: 
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: pwhole on June 29, 2020, 12:01:02 am
Personally I think the whole thing is ridiculous and clubs owe it to their members to open up or refund the membership fees for services not provided

As membership secretary of my club I can assure you that no-one has asked for their money back, and I don't expect them to - it's hardly a major annual cost and is an investment in the facilities and infrastructure as much as it is an 'access fee' to use the hut. We've had some discussion about the ethics of closing down for now, but we've been pretty solid in support of the policy - or at least no-one's complained. I've actually had four applications or requests about joining since lockdown, and I did tell all those to save their money for now unless they really wanted to pay. In this situation it did seem unfair to charge them for not much benefit.

I can't verify this, but I also doubt that any member's mental health is suffering as a direct result of not being able to use our hut. It's one small facet of a hobby that's temporarily out of action, and there are far more stressful things going on out there that many are dealing with, including no work. I just restarted my current contract after three months of nothing. I'm also one of those cavers who does need the hut to go caving most of the time, but I'm coping OK. I'm missing my friends, but we're keeping in touch, and our underground projects, which occupy most of my caving time, are all on hold, but they're fine, and in one case is digging itself (foresight). There are other things to do in life - well in mine, anyway. There's a hundred other caving-related things can be done other than actually going caving, and in that respect I've never been busier. I'm still answering bloody emails at 23.50.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: alastairgott on June 29, 2020, 12:17:48 pm
I have lost a dear friend in the last week, the last time I saw him I shared a whiskey with him from my hip flask, back in March. 10days ago he toasted the solstice with whiskey from a hip flask and then went onto cycle from Leeds to Liverpool.  he did not even get chance to fight against the covid.

It is indiscriminate, it kills, everyone that visits the hut is my friend, even if I’ve never met them. I don’t want to kill any more friends.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: mikem on July 02, 2020, 08:03:36 am
BMC advice:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/covid19-reopening-huts
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Badlad on July 02, 2020, 11:53:11 am
Looks like excellent and well considered advice.  Hut usage is something caving organisations share with other activity organisers.  It is a classic example of where our small and volunteer led caving organisation might look to other larger and better resourced organisations for advice rather than using up a lot of volunteer time repeating effort.  If it was me I'd go as far as to formalise an arrangement.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Jenny P on July 02, 2020, 03:24:56 pm
Looks like excellent and well considered advice.  Hut usage is something caving organisations share with other activity organisers.  It is a classic example of where our small and volunteer led caving organisation might look to other larger and better resourced organisations for advice rather than using up a lot of volunteer time repeating effort.  If it was me I'd go as far as to formalise an arrangement.

My caving club tried to join the BMC system but were told we didn't qualify - don't quite know why - so sounds like not an option.  Are any othee caving clubs linked to the BMC Hut system?
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Badlad on July 02, 2020, 03:52:43 pm
When you say the 'BMC system' what do you mean?  Most of the advice I read from the BMC would apply to caving huts just as it does to climbing huts. Are you saying caving huts are so different your club are unable to follow their general advice?
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Jenny P on July 02, 2020, 04:02:11 pm
I wasn't the one who made the enquiries.  The Hostel Warden was the person who did so and he reported back he had been told that our club didn't qualify to be included in the BMC Hut Booking system so we left it at that.

I note that BMC do give useful advice on club huts (I read their online Newsletter) and actually have a section which deals with advising clubs in this respect.  Don't know how many BMC-affiliated huts there are compared with BCA member clubs' huts, a lot more I suspect, given their far larger membership and the fact that there are far more climbing areas in Britain than there are caving areas.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: mikem on July 02, 2020, 04:17:34 pm
Seems you are talking about different things, as Badlad appears to be suggesting a link between BMC & BCA councils, rather than with individual huts. (Their Website lists 68 huts)
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Badlad on July 02, 2020, 06:15:15 pm
Yes I think so - apples and pears.  I'm trying to say that the advice on huts from the BMC seems generally very useful to those who run caving huts.  Duplicating effort in producing that advice seems like a waste of volunteer effort if it is much the same.  I'm still unclear what Jenny is talking about but I'm guessing her club tried to use the BMC insurance scheme or something like that.
Title: Re: Huts re-opening - not quite yet
Post by: Jenny P on July 02, 2020, 06:23:36 pm
I don't know how the enquiry to BMC was worded but the intent was to ask if the Orpheus Hut could be included on the list of BMC Huts available for booking.  It may be that we weren't eligible because we aren't a BMC member club - it wasn't important so it wasn't pursued.

Having downloaded the recently produced BMC Guidance Reopening Club Huts Booklet version1.pdf  this is impressive and covers all you would ever want.  Whether or not your club is a BMC member this should probably be required reading for all Hut Wardens.