Author Topic: Access in private or democratic groups.  (Read 17362 times)

Offline And

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #125 on: May 24, 2016, 10:43:05 pm »
Interesting to note that those that set up CAL and its advocates have been the strongest critics of the PDCMG when they play exactly the same role...

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #126 on: May 24, 2016, 11:02:51 pm »
Interesting to note that those that set up CAL and its advocates have been the strongest critics of the PDCMG when they play exactly the same role...


.... Saved to disc.

Do you have insurance indemnifying you against libel?

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.

Offline miles

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #127 on: May 24, 2016, 11:07:48 pm »
I want to thank everyone who has supported the work that we are trying to

I don't want to get drawn into this thread, but I will express my opinion that I don't really care if CAL is a democracy or not. I do however know that the people running CAL and CCC are the very best people that "we the community" could hope for.

CAL and CCC - I thank and salute you  :thumbsup:

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #128 on: May 24, 2016, 11:09:47 pm »
Send in the boys, Ian. You know it makes sense.

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #129 on: May 24, 2016, 11:25:26 pm »
Fair play peter your a shit stirring twat

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #130 on: May 24, 2016, 11:26:57 pm »
Oh dear. Silly man uses rude words to intimidate me. Quaking in my boots now. Sorry - talking about libel is silly and needs pointing out.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #131 on: May 24, 2016, 11:36:26 pm »
Administrator Comment Enough. Topic locked.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #132 on: May 25, 2016, 11:00:43 pm »
Administrator Comment Topic unlocked. Remember :hug:

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #133 on: May 26, 2016, 01:29:13 am »
... we the great unwashed have no say in the policy.

Made me sit up. Why should they?

Me too. Why should they?

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #134 on: May 26, 2016, 07:43:15 am »
Because "Property is Theft"?

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #135 on: May 26, 2016, 08:10:41 am »
I've started to hum Lennon's "Imagine" in my head. Weird.

Offline royfellows

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #136 on: May 26, 2016, 08:14:54 am »
I have copied this from one of my postings on aditnow in an attempt to examine the logic of some peoples reasoning.

READS:

A funny sort of slant on this is that its OK for a private company to purchase land with mines or caves and become the 'landowner', but not a private company to be an ACB.
CMT is of course landowner and ACB.

Pity the thread on UKC is closed as I could present this as a 'dilemma' to the complainant.

ENDS

Well now the thread is open again, so here it is.

I am off to Nenthead for a week though so will probably miss a lot here, I have a sort of funny bizarre hobby of going underground, and really like to just get on and do it.
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline crickleymal

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #137 on: May 26, 2016, 08:35:50 am »
Because "Property is Theft"?

Ok so what is proper tea?
Malc
Rusted and ropy, dog-eared old copy.
Vintage and classic or just plain Jurassic:
all words to describe me.

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #138 on: May 26, 2016, 10:44:06 am »
Because "Property is Theft"?

Ok so what is proper tea?

yorkshire tea of coarse

Offline royfellows

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #139 on: May 26, 2016, 11:41:56 am »
I don't drink tea, prefer coffee

Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline royfellows

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #140 on: May 26, 2016, 11:51:22 am »

No one has explained why CAL is the only way to keep or achieve access, just a load of tosh about liability (craftily avoided by being a shell company).

Jopo

The agreement contains an indemnity clause.

Ahh, Oh
 :-\
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline royfellows

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #141 on: May 26, 2016, 12:24:30 pm »
Here is a bit more where I attempt to address the points raised, but I omit deliberately where he answers his own questions.

CAL policy can be whatever the directors say - we the great unwashed have no say in the policy.

.......................  when you mention other conservation bodies. I ask you and others to remember that there was almost no problem for the majority of cavers who gained access through them for years and that every one of those bodies can be influenced by active cavers. CAL cannot.


Isn't this exactly what we are doing, my logic here being based on the many posts supporting our policy against yours and one other that does not.
I still think that this is democratic, if it isn't then what is?


What mines are now accessible that were not before CAL. I suspect one or two were but talking to some mine enthusiasts find that many on the list never had a problem.


Under By Laws NRW can prosecute anyone entering mines on their land without permission, so all access prior to CAL was covert.
In 1986? a group leader was prosecuted for taking a party into Rhiwbach. This mine is now gated and fitted with combination locks which were originally accessed by outdoor groups, these are now controlled by CAL who under CAL policy of making access as free and easy as possible give out the combination on request.

Trips scheduled into Parc on the north Wales NAMHO field meet had to be cancelled due to non permission.

The CAL agreement for everywhere with the exception of Temple Mine (formally owned by CCW) is not with NRW but with the Welsh government, this logically leads to the conclusion that ownership is in the Welsh government.

Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #142 on: May 26, 2016, 06:11:09 pm »
Because "Property is Theft"?

Vague use of a half-baked philosophical jingle does very little to answer the question.

Quote
Under By Laws NRW can prosecute anyone entering mines on their land without permission, so all access prior to CAL was covert.
In 1986? a group leader was prosecuted for taking a party into Rhiwbach. This mine is now gated and fitted with combination locks which were originally accessed by outdoor groups, these are now controlled by CAL who under CAL policy of making access as free and easy as possible give out the combination on request.
 

Roy's comments here are interesting. And they have a connection to the "land ownership" question.
In saying that "all access... was covert," he seems to say that explorers were too lazy to negotiate with owners themselves, but in citing a single case of prosecution he seems to say that covert access was nearly the same thing as open access. I have never had much respect for ideas of land ownership as practiced in most "developed" countries, but none of us can count on the general population or especially landowners, to feel the same way. And we should respect one another as humans.

So the question is raised, how can I respect my neighbor as a man, while caring not one whit about his rights as a property owner? Often the answer is covert access. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

To an outside observer, the fact that CAL were able to negotiate in behalf of you lot should be celebrated, at least by you lot. You have more privileges and fewer (or at least less critical) responsibilities. If it all goes wrong down the road, who cares? You're getting something for nothing now, and that's what you want. Right?

Offline royfellows

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #143 on: May 26, 2016, 07:26:35 pm »
There was a whole 'history' of access issues in the Gwydir Forest with tit for tat escalation going back to the early 1980s

The chap who was prosecuted came to the attention of what was then the Forestry Commission after a lady had to be rescued because she slipped on the incline and injured her back.

Access negotiation was attempted by NAMHO I believe, but the position of the Forestry had become entrenched.

In recent years attitudes have changed and what was then Forestry Commission Wales becoming absorbed into the new body Natural Resources Wales with a new policy of opening up what was Forestry land for recreational activities. An attitude which has to be applauded.

Times change, and sometimes it is for the better.
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.