Author Topic: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change  (Read 7272 times)

Online rhychydwr1

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Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« on: September 19, 2013, 01:17:06 pm »






Petition to save Gua Kanthan and Gunung Kanthan in Perak from quarrying by Lafarge.

 

The hill and cave have very rare flora and fauna, some is found no where else in the world.

 

PLEASE would you sign it - click on the link on the right side.

 

http://forcechange.com/70409/dont-destroy-vital-cave-system/comment-page-1

 

Offline bograt

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2013, 06:44:38 pm »
Yup I agree with the petition and have signed it, but I cannot see Lafarges motivation in the first place, are they proposing to set up a cement processing plant in Malaysia? do they already have one? does Malaysia need that much cement?
 Are they looking to "open up the Far Eastern market"? what are their plans for shipping the product, raw limestone to a processing plant or processed cement? Hardly Environmentally Friendly, whatever their reasons.!!
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Offline Blakethwaite

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2013, 06:59:33 pm »
does Malaysia need that much cement?
 

Can't think of much Malaysia is famous for in modern times other than building stupendously big
buildings & Formula 1 tracks so think the answer to that point at least is presumably yes...

Offline peterk

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2013, 08:05:19 pm »
Lafarge Malaysian Plans:http://www.lafarge.com.my/wps/portal/my/7_3-PressCoverage_Detail?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connectlib_my/Site_my/AllPressCoverage/PressCoverage_1376540644042_14Aug13/PC
And of course their environmental policy makes their intentions impossible. "We are committed to the protection of the environment, human health and well being, to the mitigation of climate change and the conservation of nature.
 
Our objective is to ensure the continued improvement of our environmental performance. We aim to use energy and natural resources more efficiently, minimise the production of waste, harmful air emissions, and water discharges while seeking ways to preserve heritage, landscape and biological diversity." more at http://www.lafarge.com.my/wps/portal/my/6_10-Environmental_Policy

Offline underground

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2013, 01:18:55 am »
Malaysia is certainly looking toward increased development in the global economy, particularly in Islamic finance, global services etc. so I'd say they're not to be discounted of being 'not of note' when it comes to creation of wealth and the demand for infrastructure and resources that comes with it, based on a couple of cliches

Offline klzil

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 12:07:19 pm »
are they proposing to set up a cement processing plant in Malaysia? do they already have one? does Malaysia need that much cement?
 Are they looking to "open up the Far Eastern market"? what are their plans for shipping the product, raw limestone to a processing plant or processed cement? Hardly Environmentally Friendly, whatever their reasons.!!

---------
They have been in Malaysia 60 years - "Lafarge Malaysia celebrating 60th Anniversary'
They have 3 integrated cement plants in Langkawi, Kanthan and Rawang.
Malaysia does need the cement and imports some from China.
They have distribution channels by road, rail and sea.  This info from Lafarge www
http://www.lafarge.com.my/wps/portal/my/2-Cement

However they are not used to quarrying tropical limestone hills with caves. This seems to be quite new to them.

Offline klzil

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 12:11:47 pm »
Peterk -
Sadly what they practice and what they preach are 2 different things.
On the Lafarge www they boast about how good they are at protecting biodiversity, rehabilitating sites after quarrying etc , but this happens mostly in Europe. They don't seem to care about what happens in Asia.
Unfortunately they don't seem to have met much resistance before in Asia.

They don't care there are IUCN Red Listed flora and fauna - they only care about profits.

Offline bograt

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 01:05:51 pm »
Very useful link PeterK, thanks for that, the fact remains that quarrying in cave riddled country has been proved to be inefficient technically, surely Lafarge know that? (or maybe efficiency is not an issue in "developing countries?")

The term "The Rape of Fools" keeps springing to mind.
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Offline klzil

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 01:48:04 pm »
It seems that Lafarge are quite new at quarrying tropical limestone hills with caves.
At a meeting with Lafarge we were told none of the members of their ‘International Panel of Experts’ had any
expertise in the biodiversity of tropical limestone ecosystems, or of caves, or karst formations because only 9% of their quarries are in such areas.

So maybe they haven't yet realized that quarrying a big cavity won't give them much limestone!!!

Offline mulucaver

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2013, 04:45:04 pm »
They are already quarrying in Gunung Kanthan and have been for years. They know perfectly well how to quarry away cave systems. It's not a question of preventing them from quarrying away cave bearing karst, it's more a question of persuading them not to destroy this particular cave.

If my experience in Sarawak is anything to go by the battle is already lost. Maybe at the very least we could persuade them to allow recording of any caves they break into before they are quarried away.

For more information on this particular issue have a look at http://cavinglizsea.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/gua-kanthan-perak-malaysia.html and http://cavinglizsea.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/gunung-kanthan-quarry.html
Dave Clucas
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Offline Martin Laverty

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2013, 02:15:08 pm »
I can endorse mulucaver's pessimism.

Look at this image showing the proximity of the largest cave in southern Sarawak (Tang Baan - now also being called Tang Raya https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.168648333198120.45625.168343699895250 ) to a huge quarry and associated clinker plant:
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=1.351150&lon=110.336359&z=16&m=b

Whole hills have been removed already and here's the start of another:
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=1.426638&lon=110.184309&z=16&m=b
and another:
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=1.398773&lon=110.250893&z=16&m=b

Then look at the sprawl of concrete that is modern Kuching ...
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=1.529664&lon=110.343246&z=12&m=b&show=/4409794/Kuching

There was an article called "Geology and Geochemistry of the Limestone in Sarawak" in the 2004 issue of the Sarawak Museum Journal in which the notion of geochemistry went no further than classifying the calcium carbonate content of the limestone of S.Sarawak  as "very high" (>97%), "high", and "slightly high" (<95%). That was as part of a biodiversity study and it is fair to say that the potential of geotourism is espoused by some, but the fetish of cement-based "development" is hard to control.

Offline mulucaver

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2013, 10:46:42 pm »
I can endorse mulucaver's pessimism.

Look at this image showing the proximity of the largest cave in southern Sarawak (Tang Baan - now also being called Tang Raya https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.168648333198120.45625.168343699895250 ) to a huge quarry and associated clinker plant:
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=1.351150&lon=110.336359&z=16&m=b

Whole hills have been removed already and here's the start of another:
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=1.426638&lon=110.184309&z=16&m=b
and another:
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=1.398773&lon=110.250893&z=16&m=b

Then look at the sprawl of concrete that is modern Kuching ...
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=1.529664&lon=110.343246&z=12&m=b&show=/4409794/Kuching

There was an article called "Geology and Geochemistry of the Limestone in Sarawak" in the 2004 issue of the Sarawak Museum Journal in which the notion of geochemistry went no further than classifying the calcium carbonate content of the limestone of S.Sarawak  as "very high" (>97%), "high", and "slightly high" (<95%). That was as part of a biodiversity study and it is fair to say that the potential of geotourism is espoused by some, but the fetish of cement-based "development" is hard to control.
And they're going to need a lot more concrete to build lots of dams! http://aliran.com/8246.html
Dave Clucas
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Offline bograt

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2013, 11:13:36 pm »
O.K., What chance have we got to save it? considering its half way round the world and I am very much local these days...
Aim low, achieve your goals, avoid disappointment

Offline klzil

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2013, 02:21:06 am »
O.K., What chance have we got to save it?

At the moment it's not looking good. We need to persuade the state gov't to do an EIA. The biodiversity report being done by Lafarge is a total farce, they have no limestone experts on the team and don't want to make the report public when done in Dec. Lafarge don't want real experts to help in the study. Guess they are scared more important flora and fauna will be found which can be used in the fight to save the site. We already have several species of flora and fauna listed on IUCN and Malaysian red lists.

But Lafarge won't look good if they destroy species that are IUCN "critically endangered" and wipe them off the face of the earth!

Offline mulucaver

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2013, 02:30:15 pm »
O.K., What chance have we got to save it?

At the moment it's not looking good. We need to persuade the state gov't to do an EIA. The biodiversity report being done by Lafarge is a total farce, they have no limestone experts on the team and don't want to make the report public when done in Dec. Lafarge don't want real experts to help in the study. Guess they are scared more important flora and fauna will be found which can be used in the fight to save the site. We already have several species of flora and fauna listed on IUCN and Malaysian red lists.

But Lafarge won't look good if they destroy species that are IUCN "critically endangered" and wipe them off the face of the earth!
Liz, if you can get anywhere with the state government I would be vey surprised. The only language they understand is Ringgit.
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Offline bograt

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2013, 02:43:48 pm »
How about getting an international environmental protection group involved ? maybe Greenpeace or someone similar, or does the UN have a department for this kind of thing?
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Offline mulucaver

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2013, 06:14:36 pm »
How about getting an international environmental protection group involved ? maybe Greenpeace or someone similar, or does the UN have a department for this kind of thing?
Try looking at the Bruno Manser Foundation website, then you'll maybe realise what the problem are.
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Offline Ouan

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2013, 01:40:40 am »
Try looking at the Bruno Manser Foundation website, then you'll maybe realise what the problem are.

Throughout SE Asia protesting against 'development' and trying to protect the environment can be hazardous to your health.

"In Thailand, ... at least 20 environmental activists have been killed over the past decade" CBS News 20 Jun 2012
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57457486/murder-of-environmentalists-appears-on-the-rise/

Offline klzil

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2013, 02:02:23 am »

Liz, if you can get anywhere with the state government I would be vey surprised. The only language they understand is Ringgit.
[/quote]
"Unfortunately" it is MNS (Malaysian Nature Society) HQ who are supposed to be dealing with the state gov't, but in typical MNS fashion they are dragging their heels.

Offline klzil

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2013, 02:07:10 am »
How about getting an international environmental protection group involved ? maybe Greenpeace or someone similar, or does the UN have a department for this kind of thing?

We have international support - IUCN, WWF, FFI .
But at the moment Lafarge don't seem concerned. Nor do they want any specialists from those international organisations involved. They make excuses not to meet any reps.

Offline bograt

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2013, 10:33:33 am »
Are these organisations pressing the government?, that is what I had in mind.
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Offline klzil

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2013, 10:49:26 am »
They are not pressing the Malaysian government. Only Lafarge.

Offline mulucaver

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2013, 12:00:29 pm »
Are these organisations pressing the government?, that is what I had in mind.
There is no point in pressing the government. A permit has been issued and that's that. Providing Lafarge work within the terms of the permit nothing can/will be done. You know perfectly well we have the same problem in UK. The only option is to try to pick the conscience of Lafarge but in my experience large companies only pay lip service to conservation or use it as a PR tool. They have no conscience, only money talks.
In the US they have taken to raising money and buying the land on which caves are situated. That's probably the only reasonable alternative.
Don't assume that things in Malaysia are the same as in the west, that's very far from the truth.
For instance, in Sarawak, if you own land and don't put it to any use, the government can seize it and give it to someone who wants to exploit it. This is done in the name of development of the country for the benefit of its people.
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Offline Alex

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2013, 12:49:15 pm »
Glad I am going before they completely wreck the place then!
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline mulucaver

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Re: Don’t Destroy Gua Kanthan Cave System - Force Change
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2013, 12:59:52 pm »
Glad I am going before they completely wreck the place then!
Too late, the damage is already done.
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